Tuis » Algemeen » Koeitjies & kalfies » The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!!
| The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22924] |
Sa, 15 Mei 1999 00:00  |
Eugene Terreblanche
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Junior Lid |
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There was recent speculation in this NG as to the future of the
Afrikaans language. This is quite an interesting matter when one
considers it's history - particulary the evolution over say the
last 100 years.
It's origins I believe are firmly in the Netherlands, and like
many bastardised languages, simply fashions words from available
sources - in particular the English language. What springs to
mind here is the theft of, in particular, the technological words
- like many associated with the computer industry. Almost all of
these have been "Afrikaanered" with the addition of a "ge" or two
at the beginning.
So what of the future you may well ask?
As Afrikaans has clearly lost it's "official" status of the past
- and acquired a stigma associated with Apartheid to boot, it
seems to be destined to the scrap heap, where no doubt it will
continue to gather dust for quite a few years to come.
So many of the Afrikaaners are fleeing the moeder land these days
also and that fragmentation will impinge upon the ability to
spread and indoctrinate the childred, who even in SAfrica will be
subject to a barrage of "foreign" cultures, ideals and languages,
for them to ultimately choose their following.
As Afrikaans is not an international language, English will surge
ahead in the popularity stakes, and ultimately triumph in the
long term.
Squirrel
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22925 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Sa, 15 Mei 1999 00:00  |
SocketZero
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Junior Lid |
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On 15 May 1999 11:20:11 -0000, squi...@echelon.alias.net (Squirrel) wrote:
> It's origins I believe are firmly in the Netherlands, and like
> many bastardised languages, simply fashions words from available
> sources - in particular the English language.
Ek sou nie graag 'n goeie argument met feite wou vertroebel nie, maar
Squirrel se opinies irriteer my nou al lank genoeg. 'n Afrikaanse
nuusgroep vra na 'n Afrikaanse spreekwoord, en Squirrel veral vra na
een spesifiek: "Opinies is soos poepholle - almal het een".
Aan Squirrel: Afrikaans evolved from a variety of languages, most of
them Germanic. In much the same way, French, Italian and Spanish
evolved from the Romance languages, which in turn traces its heritage
back to the ancient Indo-European language. If you really have an
innate interest in the origins of language, feel free to study Umberto
Eco's "The Search for the Perfect Language". If, as we all suspect,
you are merely trolling to pass the unbearable boredom of your alleged
existence, have a look at:
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=moron
> As Afrikaans has clearly lost it's "official" status of the past
> [...] , it seems to be destined to the scrap heap, where no doubt
> it will continue to gather dust for quite a few years to come.
Well, everyone can't be perfect, as you so rightly remind us. In
linguistic circles Afrikaans is in fact viewed as one of the most
modern languages in the world. Studies in Afrikaans are carried out at
a large number of universities, and not only those teaching in Dutch.
The University of Moscow and the University of Cologne are two that
jump to mind. The streamlined nature of Afrikaans grammar serves as an
example to all modern languages, and is probably the only language
spoken on a large scale with such a structure.
> As Afrikaans is not an international language, English will surge
> ahead in the popularity stakes, and ultimately triumph in the
> long term.
And as they say in the Great Big Scrabble game in the sky: D-U-N-C-E
using five letters for seventeen points. I win. Remember you are as
much entitled your opinions as anyone else, no matter how malformed,
onerous or taunting they are.
s0.
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22947 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
So, 16 Mei 1999 00:00 |
kleintjie
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Junior Lid |
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Fok Jou
Squirrel wrote in message ...
> There was recent speculation in this NG as to the future of the
> Afrikaans language. This is quite an interesting matter when one
> considers it's history - particulary the evolution over say the
> last 100 years.
>
[knip die gemors]
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22948 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
So, 16 Mei 1999 00:00 |
Robbert Zijlstra
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>
>
> Nooit op gelet, weet ook eigenlijk niet of dat nu nog steeds zo is, ik woon
> in het oosten, 5km van de Duitse grens.
>
Twenthe of de Achterhoek?
> Trouwens, weet iemand de oorsprong van 'baie'?
> Ik kan daar geen enkel taalkundig touw aan vastknopen....8-))
>
>
"Baie" komt uit het Maleis. Het wordt tegenwoordig zowel inMaleisië (Bahasa
Malaysia) als in Indonesië (Bahasa Indonesia)
gebruikt. Ik heb begrepen dat er meer Maleise taalinvloeden zijn
op het Afrikaans. Vooral woorden van gerechten, bv "Bobotie",
een Kaaps gerecht, en vruchten bv "Piesang" voor "Banaan".
Tot meels,
Robbert
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22949 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
So, 16 Mei 1999 00:00 |
Simon van der Schans
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Squirrel wrote in message ...>
> As Afrikaans is not an international language, English will surge
> ahead in the popularity stakes, and ultimately triumph in the
> long term.
Ek sou nie te seker wees hieroor nie. Wat jy nou van Engels sê
het mense in die vêrre verlede van Latyn gesê. En wie praat nou
nog
Latyn?
Swart Simon
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22951 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
So, 16 Mei 1999 00:00 |
G.B.
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nos...@please.net (Fook) writes: >
On 15 May 1999 11:20:11 -0000, squi...@echelon.alias.net (Squirrel)
> wrote:
>
>> There was recent speculation in this NG as to the future of the
>> Afrikaans language. This is quite an interesting matter when one
>> considers it's history - particulary the evolution over say the
>> last 100 years.
>>
>
> Any language with 6 million mothertongue speakers will be around for
> a few years, is my personal guess. I remember a teacher reading a
> twelfth-century quatrain to us ("habba alla fogalla nesta, hinase ik
> anda thu...") that could be clearly understood as a proto-Afrikaans.
Wat Afrikaans gaan doodmaak, is as twee
Afrikaners hier op die nuusgroep met
mekaar in Engels praat. Word wakker.
Squirrel is net so Afrikaans soos ek
en jy. Sy Afrikaans is nie baie goed
nie, maar sy Engels is nog slegter.
As jy moet vir Squirrel antwoord,
antwoord hom in Afrikaans.Dit lyk vir
my hy is te bangbroek om op die
Engelse nuusgroep te pos.
Piggy Sherlock-Holmes
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22952 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
So, 16 Mei 1999 00:00 |
Key Bored
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Volle Lid |
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On 15 May 1999 11:20:11 -0000, squi...@echelon.alias.net (Squirrel) wrote:
> There was recent speculation in this NG as to the future of the
> Afrikaans language. This is quite an interesting matter when one
> considers it's history - particulary the evolution over say the
> last 100 years.
>
Any language with 6 million mothertongue speakers will be around for
a few years, is my personal guess. I remember a teacher reading a
twelfth-century quatrain to us ("habba alla fogalla nesta, hinase ik
anda thu...") that could be clearly understood as a proto-Afrikaans.
The language hasn't been engineered into existence as a
tool of oppression in the last century, it has grown from very ancient
and deep roots.
> It's origins I believe are firmly in the Netherlands, and like
> many bastardised languages, simply fashions words from available
> sources - in particular the English language.
Streamlined 17-th century sailor's dutch, mixed with Khoisan and Xhosa
vocabulary, French accent and pronunciation, sprinkled with
Malay, Portuguese, Spanish (Basta!) and (okay, I admit) English.
Blessed with the simplest grammar of any language in existence.
> What springs to mind here is the theft of, in particular, the technological words
> - like many associated with the computer industry. Almost all of
> these have been "Afrikaanered" with the addition of a "ge" or two
> at the beginning.
Ah, but some of us would call it "loan words" and not theft. The same
as the Dutch, French, German or Italian would do in a world where new
inventions and concepts have to be accommodated daily.
But I think you'd find that there are normally correct terms of
Germanic origin to use instead of the Anglicised ones, as in
"verwerker" in stead of "prosessor."
But you seem to be the expert, could you give examples, please?
Just because _you_ don't know the proper terms, doesn't mean
it does not exist.
> So what of the future you may well ask?
>
> As Afrikaans has clearly lost it's "official" status of the past
> - and acquired a stigma associated with Apartheid to boot, it
> seems to be destined to the scrap heap, where no doubt it will
> continue to gather dust for quite a few years to come.
As if making a language official ever did anything to help preserve
it. Viz Esperanto, the "official world language"... dead as a dodo.
> So many of the Afrikaaners are fleeing the moeder land these days
> also and that fragmentation will impinge upon the ability to
> spread and indoctrinate the childred, who even in SAfrica will be
> subject to a barrage of "foreign" cultures, ideals and languages,
> for them to ultimately choose their following.
Ah, so speaking the mother tongue equates indoctrination ... ?
> As Afrikaans is not an international language, English will surge
> ahead in the popularity stakes, and ultimately triumph in the
> long term.
Yeah right. I can walk tall in Amsterdam or Surabaya, understanding
the Kase or the Surinamians, and being understood by them.
(My own prediction is that the next world war will be the USA and UK
against the rest, and after the nuclear dust has settled, you'll find
very few English speakers left...)
Opsaal!
(One challenge, Squirrel - translate "Jou ma se e-pos!" )
and try capturing the same depth and strength of emotion...)
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22953 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
So, 16 Mei 1999 00:00 |
Shannon
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Willem-Jan Markerink wrote in message ...
> In article , wrote:
>> w.j.ma...@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink) writes:
>>
>>
Die woord 'baie' kom oorspronklik van Maleis, so ook woorde soos blatjang,
borrie, baadjie, bredie. Dit word ook genoem leenwoorde omdat dit van ander
tale geleen is a.g.v. die behoefte aan 'n woord omdat dit nie reeds in
Afrikaans bestaan het nie.
>
> Trouwens, weet iemand de oorsprong van 'baie'?
> Ik kan daar geen enkel taalkundig touw aan vastknopen....8-))
>
>
>
> --
> Bye,
>
> Willem-Jan Markerink
>
>
> The desire to understand
> is sometimes far less intelligent than
> the inability to understand
>
>
>
> [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22954 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
So, 16 Mei 1999 00:00 |
Willem-Jan Markerink
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In article ,
w.j.ma...@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink) wrote:
> In article ,
> w.j.ma...@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink) wrote:
>> In article ,
>> squi...@echelon.alias.net (Squirrel) wrote:
>>> There was recent speculation in this NG as to the future of the
>>> Afrikaans language. This is quite an interesting matter when one
>>> considers it's history - particulary the evolution over say the
>>> last 100 years.
>>>
>>> It's origins I believe are firmly in the Netherlands, and like
>>> many bastardised languages, simply fashions words from available
>>> sources - in particular the English language.
>>
>> In order of importance, Dutch, Danish and German,
>
> Forgot:
> I think Fries belongs in this riddle too, a Dutch sub-language (not a
> dialect, to me it's almost as hard to read as Danish (while I can
> read/write/speak German even better than English).
>
>> with Indian influences I
>> believe. English influences might be of a much later time in history,
>> perhaps accelerated by modern technology (as in any language).
>
> Mmm....I checked one of my books about SA, it also specifically mention
> influences from the Maleisian (sp?) slave population....not quite the same
> as Indian.
>
>
Oops, last one, I promise: French.
I often wondered which words that might be, never saw one, but then it
struck me that it might be more grammatical, like the double negations (nie
gelooft nie)....only French has a similar structure, unlike
Dutch/German/Danish.
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22955 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
So, 16 Mei 1999 00:00 |
G.B.
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soc...@hotmail.com (SocketZero) writes:
> Aan Squirrel: Afrikaans evolved from a variety of languages
Jy kan maar Afrikaans met Squirrel
praat. Sy Afrikaans is beter as sy
Engels. Dis nou nie te sê dat sy
Afrikaans goed is nie. Ignoreer die
ou. Hy wil net aandag trek. Maar as
hy weer sulke vuil taal op hierdie
nuusgroep besig, gaan ek hom van die
Net laat afhaal. En waarmee verdien
hy dan sy brood? Miskien sal hy terug
moet gaan SA toe.
Piggy, wat nie meer as so vyf honderd
myl of so van hom af bly nie.
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22956 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
So, 16 Mei 1999 00:00 |
Simon van der Schans
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@igs.net wrote in message
...
> Nee, jy het dit mis. Die dubbele negatief
> is nie van Frans afkomstig nie. Daar is
> dubbele negatief-strukture in die dialekte
> van suid-holland, wat die bakermat van
> Afrikaans was.
Ek vind dit moeilik om te glo dat dit van Hollands afkomstig is.
Om die waarheid te sê vind ek dit ook moeilik om te glo dat dit
van Frans afkomstig is. Dit het nie dieselfde "feel" as die
dubbele negatief in Frans nie. Is dit nie dalk van Khoisan of
Maleis afkomstig nie? Wie is daar op hierdie NG wat Khoisan of
Maleis kan praat?
> Daar is baie min Franse woorde in
> Afrikaans wat nie ook in Nederlands of
> Engels te vinde is nie. Meestal die
> name van verskillende tipes druiwe, en
> ander vrugte, soos "pampelmoes" (van
> pomme d'amour), bermot-sersan peer
> (van "cresane") sermeinpeer (St. Germain.)
En wat van "se voet"?
Swart Simon
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22958 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
So, 16 Mei 1999 00:00 |
Willem-Jan Markerink
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In article ,
squi...@echelon.alias.net (Squirrel) wrote:
> There was recent speculation in this NG as to the future of the
> Afrikaans language. This is quite an interesting matter when one
> considers it's history - particulary the evolution over say the
> last 100 years.
>
> It's origins I believe are firmly in the Netherlands, and like
> many bastardised languages, simply fashions words from available
> sources - in particular the English language.
In order of importance, Dutch, Danish and German, with Indian influences I
believe. English influences might be of a much later time in history,
perhaps accelerated by modern technology (as in any language).
Btw, show me a non-bastardised language, and I will show you its bastard
roots. The only difference with Afrikaans is that it is a relatively modern
language, so the resemblance with its roots are easier to spot, as well as
the differences. The time span between modern European languages and old
Roman & Greek roots is much much larger, so the awareness is much less.
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22959 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
So, 16 Mei 1999 00:00 |
Willem-Jan Markerink
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In article ,
w.j.ma...@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink) wrote:
> In article ,
> squi...@echelon.alias.net (Squirrel) wrote:
>> There was recent speculation in this NG as to the future of the
>> Afrikaans language. This is quite an interesting matter when one
>> considers it's history - particulary the evolution over say the
>> last 100 years.
>>
>> It's origins I believe are firmly in the Netherlands, and like
>> many bastardised languages, simply fashions words from available
>> sources - in particular the English language.
>
> In order of importance, Dutch, Danish and German,
Forgot:
I think Fries belongs in this riddle too, a Dutch sub-language (not a
dialect, to me it's almost as hard to read as Danish (while I can
read/write/speak German even better than English).
> with Indian influences I
> believe. English influences might be of a much later time in history,
> perhaps accelerated by modern technology (as in any language).
Mmm....I checked one of my books about SA, it also specifically mention
influences from the Maleisian (sp?) slave population....not quite the same
as Indian.
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22960 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
So, 16 Mei 1999 00:00 |
SocketZero
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Junior Lid |
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On 16 May 1999 21:05:20 GMT, wrote:
> Wat Afrikaans gaan doodmaak, is as twee
> Afrikaners hier op die nuusgroep met
> mekaar in Engels praat.
Dis dalk iets wat aan die einde van die dag selfs ons behoud kan wees.
Om Engels met mekaar te praat is effens absurd, maar hoeveel
Afrikaners werk en leef nie deesdae in 'n nie-Afrikaanse omgewing nie?
Daar is min nasies in die wêreld wat so gladweg kan verkleurmannetjie
speel tussen verskillende kulturele situasies. Solank ons net nie
uiteindelik onsself heeltemal verloor in die vreemde kultuur nie, kan
dit ons net sterker maak.
s0.
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22984 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Ma, 17 Mei 1999 00:00 |
lou[1]
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@igs.net wrote:
>
> soc...@hotmail.com (SocketZero) writes:
>
>> Aan Squirrel: Afrikaans evolved from a variety of languages
>
> Jy kan maar Afrikaans met Squirrel
> praat. Sy Afrikaans is beter as sy
> Engels. Dis nou nie te sê dat sy
> Afrikaans goed is nie. Ignoreer die
> ou. Hy wil net aandag trek. Maar as
> hy weer sulke vuil taal op hierdie
> nuusgroep besig, gaan ek hom van die
> Net laat afhaal. En waarmee verdien
> hy dan sy brood? Miskien sal hy terug
> moet gaan SA toe.
>
> Piggy, wat nie meer as so vyf honderd
> myl of so van hom af bly nie.
O o, Gloudina self aangestelde Net Spietkop gaan nou ook die net
patroleer! Nou is Eenkoringtjie kniediep in die Kakiebos en sal sy pos
gesensor word!! Hoekom sit jy hom nie in jou Kill file nie?? :|
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22985 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Ma, 17 Mei 1999 00:00 |
Key Bored
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Volle Lid |
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On Mon, 17 May 1999 17:44:17 GMT, th...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> nos...@please.net (Fook) wrote:
>
>> As if making a language official ever did anything to help preserve
>> it. Viz Esperanto, the "official world language"... dead as a dodo.
>
> I believe you have that backwards. Esperanto has never been official
> anywhere - and indeed had been outlawed in some places. There is an
> active international community and subculture of Esperanto speakers
> "alive and well" today.
>
My sincere apologies... but then, I hadn't heard any Esperanto over
here where I live yet. How many speakers are there?
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22986 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Ma, 17 Mei 1999 00:00 |
G.B.
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lou writes:
>> Piggy, wat nie meer as so vyf honderd
>> myl of so van hom af bly nie.
>
> O o, Gloudina self aangestelde Net Spietkop gaan nou ook die net
> patroleer! Nou is Eenkoringtjie kniediep in die Kakiebos en sal sy pos
> gesensor word!! Hoekom sit jy hom nie in jou Kill file nie?? :|
Ag, nee wat, ou Lou. Ek is mos te nuuskierig
oor wat sy volgende move gaan wees. Ek is nie
Net Spietkop nie. Ek is Net terroris. En my
prooi op die oomblik is Squirrel se alter ego,
wat baie stil op die oomblik is. Ek dink hy
is effens geintimideer deur die feit dat hy
weet ek weet waar hy is, en dat ek sy base kan
kontak.
Gloudina
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22987 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Ma, 17 Mei 1999 00:00 |
th...
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Junior Lid |
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In article ,
nos...@please.net (Fook) wrote:
> As if making a language official ever did anything to help preserve
> it. Viz Esperanto, the "official world language"... dead as a dodo.
I believe you have that backwards. Esperanto has never been official
anywhere - and indeed had been outlawed in some places. There is an
active international community and subculture of Esperanto speakers
"alive and well" today.
Thomas L. Rochestro
http://www.esperanto.net
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22988 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Ma, 17 Mei 1999 00:00 |
Willem-Jan Markerink
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In article ,
soc...@hotmail.com (SocketZero) wrote:
> On Sun, 16 May 99 02:37:04 GMT, w.j.ma...@a1.nl (Willem-Jan
> Markerink) wrote:
>
>> Mmm....I checked one of my books about SA, it also specifically mention
>> influences from the Maleisian (sp?) slave population....not quite the same
>> as Indian.
>
> There's a good article about the influence of Malay on Afrikaans at
> http://www.afrikaans.com/av6118.html
>
> s0.
Hartelijk dank, tijd voor wat studie!....:-))
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22989 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Ma, 17 Mei 1999 00:00 |
Willem-Jan Markerink
Boodskappe: 331
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In article , wrote:
> w.j.ma...@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink) writes:
>
>
>> Oops, last one, I promise: French.
>> I often wondered which words that might be, never saw one, but then it
>> struck me that it might be more grammatical, like the double negations (nie
>> gelooft nie)....only French has a similar structure, unlike
>> Dutch/German/Danish.
>
>
> Nee, jy het dit mis. Die dubbele negatief
> is nie van Frans afkomstig nie. Daar is
> dubbele negatief-strukture in die dialekte
> van suid-holland, wat die bakermat van
> Afrikaans was.
Nooit op gelet, weet ook eigenlijk niet of dat nu nog steeds zo is, ik woon
in het oosten, 5km van de Duitse grens.
> Daar is baie min Franse woorde in
> Afrikaans wat nie ook in Nederlands of
> Engels te vinde is nie. Meestal die
> name van verskillende tipes druiwe, en
> ander vrugte, soos "pampelmoes" (van
> pomme d'amour),
Mmmm....in het Nederlands bestaat wel het woord/produkt pompelmoes....maar
dat lijkt me eerder afkomstig van het Franse 'mousse'....net als het
Nederlandse appelmoes (appelpuree....het dat ook appelmoes in het
Afrikaans?).
> bermot-sersan peer
> (van "cresane") sermeinpeer (St. Germain.)
> Daar is wel volop Franse voorname en vanne
> in Afrikaans.
>
> Weet jy dat ten minste een invloedryke
> persoon die teorie gehad het dat Afrikaans
> van Friese oorsprong was? Dit was Olive
> Schreiner, baie bekende Suid-Afrikaanse
> skryfster in Engels.
Jullie 'y' in plaats van onze 'ij' komt in ieder geval niet voor in het
hedendaagse Nederlands of Duits....dat is typisch Fries (of Scandinavisch,
Deens weet ik niet zeker).
Maar dat kan een paar honderd jaar geleden natuurlijk anders zijn geweest,
oud-Nederlands gebruikt wel weer de 'y'.
Maar ik begrijp dat Olive's theorie weinig aanhang/weerklank vond bij de
taalkundigen?
Trouwens, weet iemand de oorsprong van 'baie'?
Ik kan daar geen enkel taalkundig touw aan vastknopen....8-))
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #23021 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Di, 18 Mei 1999 00:00 |
ProPacem
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>
> ons het mos al die
> paadjie geloop toe Leswin mense se monde wou snoer nie waar nie?
Een mens (enkelvoud) - en nie die persoon nie, maar sy uitlatings. Waar dit
spraakvryheid aangaain het ek reeds my perspektief daarop gestel en verskil ons
nou, soos ook toe.
leswin
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #23046 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Wo, 19 Mei 1999 00:00 |
G.B.
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th...@my-dejanews.com writes:
> Esperantists are spread around the world. My wife and I decided to
> learn Esperanto so that we can travel and visit "locals" in various
> places around the world.
>
> Someone in this thread said that he doubts that anyone is teaching
> Esperanto to their children as a second language. I've met a number of
> kids who speak Esperanto as one of their *native* languages.
>
> Thomas L. Rochestro
> http://www.esperanto.net
Could you now move out of this
newsgroup, which is a newsgroup
created for people writing in
Afrikaans. Why don't you emigrate
to an esperanto newsgroup? Are
you trying to draw attention to
yourself?
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #23047 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Wo, 19 Mei 1999 00:00 |
Willem-Jan Markerink
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In article ,
"Shannon" wrote:
>
> Simon van der Schans wrote in message
> ...
>
>
> En wie praat nou
>> nog
>> Latyn?
>
> Slaat jou vinger in die deur vas en hoor in watter tale spreek jy! ;-)
Is wel een mooie definitie van moedertaal....:-))
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #23048 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Wo, 19 Mei 1999 00:00 |
th...
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In article ,
w.j.ma...@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink) wrote:
> I think he meant it as 'formalized' language, instead of 'informal'.
I think I'll let Fook (?) speak for himself.
> Esperanto isn't a social language, growing at its own....to put it
> extreme: you need forced contacts outdoors to keep it alive.
This is so contrary to my own experience, that I don't know where to
begin. I suspect you're just making it up and that you have no direct
experience with Esperanto. That's just a hunch. I'm willing to be
shown wrong on this.
> I doubt anyone teaches it to his kids as the first secondary language.
I already commented on this in another post, but looking at it again, I
realise I'm not sure what you're getting at. What is "the first
secondary language"? What does it mean to teach a language "as" such?
There are a number of reasons to learn Esperanto. Speaking it as the
"universal second language" is not (yet?) one of them -- but regardless,
the method of teaching it is the same.
Thomas L. Rochestro
http://www.esperanto.net
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #23049 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Wo, 19 Mei 1999 00:00 |
lou[1]
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ProPacem wrote:
>
>>
>
>> ons het mos al die
>> paadjie geloop toe Leswin mense se monde wou snoer nie waar nie?
>
> Een mens (enkelvoud) - en nie die persoon nie, maar sy uitlatings. Waar dit
> spraakvryheid aangaain het ek reeds my perspektief daarop gestel en verskil ons
> nou, soos ook toe.
>
> leswin
Wel - al ooit daaraan gedink dat as jy wel se smoel sou gesnoer
het jy ook ander mense (meervoud!) twee keer sou laat dink het voordat
hulle enigiets sou gesê het? Maar dan het jy ook in jou doel geslaag en
is dan ook heelwat minder vokaal as tevore.
Maar dan het ons sal hieroor gestry en kan jy jou siening van Selektiewe
spraakvryheid seker maar behou.
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #23050 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Wo, 19 Mei 1999 00:00 |
Willem-Jan Markerink
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In article , th...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article ,
> nos...@please.net (Fook) wrote:
>
>> As if making a language official ever did anything to help preserve
>> it. Viz Esperanto, the "official world language"... dead as a dodo.
>
> I believe you have that backwards. Esperanto has never been official
> anywhere - and indeed had been outlawed in some places. There is an
> active international community and subculture of Esperanto speakers
> "alive and well" today.
I think he meant it as 'formalized' language, instead of 'informal'.
Esperanto isn't a social language, growing at its own....to put it
extreme: you need forced contacts outdoors to keep it alive.
I doubt anyone teaches it to his kids as the first secondary language.
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #23051 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Wo, 19 Mei 1999 00:00 |
Willem-Jan Markerink
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In article ,
Robbert Zijlstra wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>> Nooit op gelet, weet ook eigenlijk niet of dat nu nog steeds zo is, ik woon
>> in het oosten, 5km van de Duitse grens.
>>
>
> Twenthe of de Achterhoek?
Achterhoek.
Ik kan in Duitsland met hetzelfde dialect uit de voeten als hier....best
grappig, zitten heel weinig verschillen tussen.
>> Trouwens, weet iemand de oorsprong van 'baie'?
>> Ik kan daar geen enkel taalkundig touw aan vastknopen....8-))
>>
>
> "Baie" komt uit het Maleis. Het wordt tegenwoordig zowel inMaleisië (Bahasa
> Malaysia) als in Indonesië (Bahasa Indonesia)
> gebruikt. Ik heb begrepen dat er meer Maleise taalinvloeden zijn
> op het Afrikaans. Vooral woorden van gerechten, bv "Bobotie",
> een Kaaps gerecht, en vruchten bv "Piesang" voor "Banaan".
Namen van voedsel of gerechten zijn voor mij meer logisch, zeker als iets
vergelijkbaars niet bestaat/bestond in de oorspronkelijke taal.
Maar juist bij iets alledaags als 'baie' had ik dat niet verwacht....
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #23052 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Wo, 19 Mei 1999 00:00 |
Willem-Jan Markerink
Boodskappe: 331
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In article ,
nos...@please.net (Fook) wrote:
> On Mon, 17 May 1999 17:44:17 GMT, th...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> nos...@please.net (Fook) wrote:
>>
>>> As if making a language official ever did anything to help preserve
>>> it. Viz Esperanto, the "official world language"... dead as a dodo.
>>
>> I believe you have that backwards. Esperanto has never been official
>> anywhere - and indeed had been outlawed in some places. There is an
>> active international community and subculture of Esperanto speakers
>> "alive and well" today.
>>
>
> My sincere apologies... but then, I hadn't heard any Esperanto over
> here where I live yet. How many speakers are there?
>
Never met anyone that I am aware of....and that includes a wide range of
university contacts....maybe because of their technical background (as
opposed to language/law/socio studies), but still....enough candidates who
were overly-active enough to dabble in any kind of weird study/hobby, but
never met one in Esperanto....again, they *might* not have talked about it
to me, but that's exactly the 'formalized' and 'forced contact' association
I have with this language....it isn't natural outside an artificial
surrounding/environment....to the point that perhaps hardly anyone around
them notices it. More artificial cryptology than a social language....8-))
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #23053 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Wo, 19 Mei 1999 00:00 |
Willem-Jan Markerink
Boodskappe: 331
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In article ,
nos...@please.net (Fook) wrote:
> On 15 May 1999 11:20:11 -0000, squi...@echelon.alias.net (Squirrel)
> wrote:
>
>> There was recent speculation in this NG as to the future of the
>> Afrikaans language. This is quite an interesting matter when one
>> considers it's history - particulary the evolution over say the
>> last 100 years.
>>
>
> Any language with 6 million mothertongue speakers will be around for
> a few years, is my personal guess. I remember a teacher reading a
> twelfth-century quatrain to us ("habba alla fogalla nesta, hinase ik
> anda thu...") that could be clearly understood as a proto-Afrikaans.
>
> The language hasn't been engineered into existence as a
> tool of oppression in the last century, it has grown from very ancient
> and deep roots.
>
>> It's origins I believe are firmly in the Netherlands, and like
>> many bastardised languages, simply fashions words from available
>> sources - in particular the English language.
>
> Streamlined 17-th century sailor's dutch, mixed with Khoisan and Xhosa
> vocabulary, French accent and pronunciation, sprinkled with
> Malay, Portuguese, Spanish (Basta!) and (okay, I admit) English.
> Blessed with the simplest grammar of any language in existence.
I checked one more Dutch dictionary, and it mentions, in chronological
order, influences by: Hottentots (not sure how that translates to either
English or Afrikaans), Malay and Portugese....later followed by Bantoe and
English. Quite odd listing, as another travel-dictionary mentions French,
but not Portugese (being so close to Mozambique it must of course have had
Portugese influences).
Btw, what also bugs me is why English in SA never got side-tracked as much
as Dutch did....to me it looks like SA-English neither kept its old roots,
nor did it see as much influence by other languages.
> As if making a language official ever did anything to help preserve
> it. Viz Esperanto, the "official world language"... dead as a dodo.
Or try to speak Latin outside the Vatican....8-))
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #23054 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Wo, 19 Mei 1999 00:00 |
Willem-Jan Markerink
Boodskappe: 331
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In article ,
"Simon van der Schans" wrote:
> Squirrel wrote in message ...>
>> As Afrikaans is not an international language, English will surge
>> ahead in the popularity stakes, and ultimately triumph in the
>> long term.
>
> Ek sou nie te seker wees hieroor nie. Wat jy nou van Engels sê
> het mense in die vêrre verlede van Latyn gesê. En wie praat nou
> nog
> Latyn?
Mandela moest het zelfs aanhoren, tijdens de uitreiking van zijn
ere-doctoraat in Leiden....8-))
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #23055 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Wo, 19 Mei 1999 00:00 |
SocketZero
Boodskappe: 9
Geregistreer: Mei 1999
Karma: 0
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Junior Lid |
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On Wed, 19 May 1999 12:14:13 GMT, th...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> Esperanto isn't a social language, growing at its own....to put it
>> extreme: you need forced contacts outdoors to keep it alive.
>
> This is so contrary to my own experience, that I don't know where to
> begin. I suspect you're just making it up and that you have no direct
> experience with Esperanto. That's just a hunch. I'm willing to be
> shown wrong on this.
The dozen or so speakers of Esperanto I have had contact with (mostly
in Belgium and France) dabble in the language as a hobby or as a
particular interest in linguistics. How does this differ from the
thousands of people fluent in Klingon? Many "Star Trek" expositions
and meetings are opened and addressed in Klingon, but that doesn't
make the language any less artificial.
s0.
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #23056 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Wo, 19 Mei 1999 00:00 |
G.B.
Boodskappe: 2174
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th...@my-dejanews.com writes:
> I already commented on this in another post, but looking at it again, I
> realise I'm not sure what you're getting at. What is "the first
> secondary language"? What does it mean to teach a language "as" such?
> There are a number of reasons to learn Esperanto. Speaking it as the
> "universal second language" is not (yet?) one of them -- but regardless,
> the method of teaching it is the same.
>
> Thomas L. Rochestro
Kan julle here miskien op hierdie
nuusgroep in Afrikaans praat? Die
Esperanto-meneer kan duidelik
Afrikaans verstaan, anders wat
doen hy op die Afrikaanse nuus-
groep? Die Heer Makerink kan
in Nederlands skryf. Hierdie
nuusgroep is vir Afrikaans-
skrywendes. So, skoert as julle
julle praatjies oor Esperanto in
hierdie nuusgroep in Engels
wil doen. Wat is "skoert" in
Esperanto? Basta?
Gloudina
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #23057 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Wo, 19 Mei 1999 00:00 |
ProPacem
Boodskappe: 320
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>
> Wel - al ooit daaraan gedink dat as jy wel se smoel sou gesnoer
> het jy ook ander mense (meervoud!) twee keer sou laat dink het voordat
> hulle enigiets sou gesê het?
Jy maak 'n goeie punt - een waaraan ek nie gedink het nie. Jy's reg. Tog,
indien dit mense twee keer laat dink waar dit die plasing van bevooroodeelde en
stereotiperende bydraes aangaan, maak ek nie verskoning voor nie en dink ek dit
was dan geslaagd. Indien dit mense in die algemeen weerhou van bydraes maak,
was dit duidelik teenproduktief en sekerlik nie my intensie nie.
> Maar dan het ons sal hieroor gestry en kan jy jou siening van Selektiewe
> spraakvryheid seker maar behou.
Soos altyd wil ek graag glo dat ek oop is vir oortuigende argumente - tot dese
was dit nie die geval ten opsigte van spraakvryheid nie. Ek maak ook kapsie
teen jou tipering van my siening as "selektiewe" spraakvryheid. Dis nie soos
ek dit sien nie, nog minder soos ek dit beskryf het. Veel eerder
"verantwoordelike" spraakvryheid. Ek het ook nie jou toestemming nodig om my
siening te behou of op te gee nie.
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #23058 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Wo, 19 Mei 1999 00:00 |
Willem-Jan Markerink
Boodskappe: 331
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In article ,
"Shannon" wrote:
>
> Willem-Jan Markerink wrote in message ...
>> In article , wrote:
>>> w.j.ma...@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink) writes:
>>>
>>>
>
>>
>> Trouwens, weet iemand de oorsprong van 'baie'?
>> Ik kan daar geen enkel taalkundig touw aan vastknopen....8-))
>>
>
> Die woord 'baie' kom oorspronklik van Maleis, so ook woorde soos blatjang,
> borrie, baadjie, bredie. Dit word ook genoem leenwoorde omdat dit van ander
> tale geleen is a.g.v. die behoefte aan 'n woord omdat dit nie reeds in
> Afrikaans bestaan het nie.
Aha, weer wat geleerd....:-))
Maar het argument van 'noodzaak/gebrek' vind ik niet zo sterk....waarom kon
het Nederlands van die tijd wel zonder dit woord, en het Afrikaans niet?
Zou het niet zo kunnen zijn dat het korter/makkelijker was dan het
Nederlandse 'heel erg' (zoals 'heel erg bedankt' of 'heel erg lief' ipv
'baie dank' en 'baie lief').
Ik betrap me daar zelf namelijk ook soms op, Engelse of Duitse
uitdrukkingen schieten me sneller te binnen dan Nederlandse, en soms is er
zelfs helemaal geen vertaling die net zo kort en krachtig is.
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #23059 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Wo, 19 Mei 1999 00:00 |
pricer...
Boodskappe: 2
Geregistreer: Mei 1999
Karma: 0
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Junior Lid |
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In article ,
soc...@hotmail.com (SocketZero) wrote:
> The dozen or so speakers of Esperanto I have had contact with (mostly
> in Belgium and France) dabble in the language as a hobby or as a
> particular interest in linguistics. How does this differ from the
> thousands of people fluent in Klingon? Many "Star Trek" expositions
> and meetings are opened and addressed in Klingon, but that doesn't
> make the language any less artificial.
This is very interesting! Can you tell me your source for the statement
that thousnads of people are fluent in Klingon? The president of the
Klingon Language Institute was quoted in WIRED magazine as saying that
all the people capable of carying on a fluent conversation in Klingon
could comfortably go out to dinner together, and the handful of people
I know who know Klingon themselves (two of them have Ph.D.'s in
lingusitics, BTW) agree in this general assessment. Have you had
personal experience of the Trek meetings you refer to? Were the entire
meetings carried on in Klingon, or just some opening remarks?
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #23060 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Wo, 19 Mei 1999 00:00 |
th...
Boodskappe: 14
Geregistreer: Mei 1999
Karma: 0
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Junior Lid |
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In article ,
nos...@please.net (Fook) wrote:
> My sincere apologies... but then, I hadn't heard any Esperanto over
> here where I live yet. How many speakers are there?
Depending on how you define "speaker" (and how you count them) it's
estimated to be between a few hundred thousand, and two million. I
believe there are easilly millions who "dabble" in the language enough
to be able to read it comfortably with a dictionary.
Esperantists are spread around the world. My wife and I decided to
learn Esperanto so that we can travel and visit "locals" in various
places around the world.
Someone in this thread said that he doubts that anyone is teaching
Esperanto to their children as a second language. I've met a number of
kids who speak Esperanto as one of their *native* languages.
Thomas L. Rochestro
http://www.esperanto.net
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| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #23086 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Do, 20 Mei 1999 00:00 |
th...
Boodskappe: 14
Geregistreer: Mei 1999
Karma: 0
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Junior Lid |
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In article ,
wrote:
> Kan julle here miskien op hierdie
> nuusgroep in Afrikaans praat? Die
> Esperanto-meneer kan duidelik
> Afrikaans verstaan, anders wat
> doen hy op die Afrikaanse nuus-
> groep?
Actually, no I can't. I was in the Afrikaanse nuusgroep reading the
English-language notes. I was reading a discussion in English about
Afrikaans. Someone had made a comparison to Esperanto which wasn't
true. I pointed that out, and then people started asking me questions
in English, which I answered.
You're right. I didn't check first to see if English posts were
allowed. I assumed (apparently incorrectly) that since I was responding
to an English post, that English was allowed.
Pardon the intrusion.
> Wat is "skoert" in Esperanto? Basta?
Don't know. Maybe "senpatrulo" - if I understand "skoert" (which I
don't.)
Again .... vergeef mijn faut.
Thomas L. Rochestro
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