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| Seer van Rensburg's Prohpechies Revealed on "Hello, Africa!" [boodskap #110562] |
Ma, 19 Junie 2006 10:11  |
NewsGuy
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Junior Lid |
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Nico Coetzee from Great Brak River (Cape South Coast) continues the
discussion of the prophecies of the Boere Seer "Oom Klasie" van
Rensburg (1864 -1926) and the incredible way in which these predictions
actually came true and are coming true today, even as you are reading
this.
Other experts on these prophesies who called in were "Adam from
England" who told about the recent bombings in London and other
occurrences in Britain happening exactly as predicted, and Julie van
Rensburg (no relation of the Seer) from Durban, Natal, who had
translated some of Adriaan Snyman's books about the Seer.
Nico relates how Adriaan Snyman was ridiculed for for publishing Oom
Klasie's prophesies about Luderitz Harbor and the "Impossible" repair
of the sand-dune covered railroad line to Prieska, and how these
predictions came true and the ridiculers had to eat their words. Nico
provides an eye-witness account of the condition of the rebuilt harbor
and railroad line.
Nico, Adam and Julie relate what the Seer's predicted will happen next
to the USA, Britain, Germany, the Middle East, and other countries, how
the Third World War will start and how the Boerevolk will provide a
safe haven for flocks of new white immigrants.
How do these predictions concern you? Listen to find out.
Click Here for FREE .mp3:
http://therightperspectivepodcastblog.blogspot.com/2006/06/h ello-africa-seer-van-rensburg-part-2.html
Part One Available Here:
http://therightperspectivepodcastblog.blogspot.com/2006/06/h ello-africa-seer-van-rensburg.html
The Right Perspective - Heard LIVE every Friday 10pm EST over shortwave
WWCR 3.215 Mhz and the Internet at www.therightperspective.com.
Subscribe to RSS Feed:
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| Re: Seer van Rensburg's Prohpechies Revealed on "Hello, Africa!" [boodskap #110565 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #110562] |
Ma, 19 Junie 2006 14:14  |
PietR
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Waar ek nie enige belangstellings het in 'sieners' nie, het jy
belangstelling getrek met die 'Luderitz Harbour' stelling. Vertel!
"NewsGuy" wrote in message
news:1150711866.757158.238970@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com.. .
> Nico Coetzee from Great Brak River (Cape South Coast) continues the
> discussion of the prophecies of the Boere Seer "Oom Klasie" van
> Rensburg (1864 -1926) and the incredible way in which these predictions
> actually came true and are coming true today, even as you are reading
> this.
>
> Other experts on these prophesies who called in were "Adam from
> England" who told about the recent bombings in London and other
> occurrences in Britain happening exactly as predicted, and Julie van
> Rensburg (no relation of the Seer) from Durban, Natal, who had
> translated some of Adriaan Snyman's books about the Seer.
>
> Nico relates how Adriaan Snyman was ridiculed for for publishing Oom
> Klasie's prophesies about Luderitz Harbor and the "Impossible" repair
> of the sand-dune covered railroad line to Prieska, and how these
> predictions came true and the ridiculers had to eat their words. Nico
> provides an eye-witness account of the condition of the rebuilt harbor
> and railroad line.
>
> Nico, Adam and Julie relate what the Seer's predicted will happen next
> to the USA, Britain, Germany, the Middle East, and other countries, how
> the Third World War will start and how the Boerevolk will provide a
> safe haven for flocks of new white immigrants.
>
> How do these predictions concern you? Listen to find out.
>
>
> Click Here for FREE .mp3:
> http://therightperspectivepodcastblog.blogspot.com/2006/06/h ello-africa-seer-van-rensburg-part-2.html
>
> Part One Available Here:
> http://therightperspectivepodcastblog.blogspot.com/2006/06/h ello-africa-seer-van-rensburg.html
>
>
> The Right Perspective - Heard LIVE every Friday 10pm EST over shortwave
> WWCR 3.215 Mhz and the Internet at www.therightperspective.com.
>
> Subscribe to RSS Feed:
> http://feeds.feedburner.com/TheRightPerspectivePodcastBlog
>
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| Re: Seer van Rensburg's Prohpechies Revealed on "Hello, Africa!" [boodskap #110568 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #110562] |
Di, 20 Junie 2006 10:07 |
Torreke
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Ferdi,
There is no doubt about the fact that Siener van Rensburg did have the
ability to "see" things that other people did not. That is not unusual; my
girl friend at varsity had similar abilities. I think all people sometimes
have the experience of "just knowing" without any reasonable explanation of
how you knew. Siener was a member of De La Reys commando during the A-B
War and warned the Genl regularly about the movements of British troops. De
La Rey's successes as guerilla leader was not only because of his
exceptionally brilliant military brain, but also partly because of what
Siener "saw". But his ability to say what the movements of the British
forces were, could also be attributed to telepathy. What could not be
attributed to telepathy was his ability to correctly forecast certain
people's imminent unexpected death, e.g. that of Genl. De la Rey. It is
well documented that he warned De La Rey about the latter's death several
weeks before De La Rey was killed by the Police.
I read one of Adriaan Snyman's books about Siener's visions. The problem is
that Adriaan Snyman and the far right supporters read into the visions what
suits them, especially their racist ideology. There is no certainty about
the precise contents of the visions. Adriaan Snyman's interpretations are
comparible with those of people who tried to proof that Napoleon was the
Anti-Christ of Revelation 13, or Adolf Hitler, or Lenin, Stalin, Kissinger;
for each one of these people another calculation method was used to proof
that the value of his name is 666. One can basically make any text say
anything if you don't adhere to recognised and consistent principles of text
interpretation.
A second problem is when people rely more on Siener's visions than on the
Bible. Siener was an ordinary sinner, in spite of his exceptional talent.
Therefore anything that he "saw" or said must be tested against the
principles of the Bible and, if it is not in line with the Bibel, it should
be rejected and / or disregarded. Adriaan Snyman relates that Pres. Paul
Kruger had a similar ability to see visions, but deliberatly suppressed it
until it did not happen anymore. I cannot vow to that because I have no
other evidence of it. However, suppressing such ability would have been
perfectly in line with Kruger's religious convictions. He was a founder
member of the Reformed Church (Doppers) and as such would have held the Sola
Scriptura (God's Word only) principle in high regard.
Torreke
"Ferdi Greyling" skryf in boodskap news:c64d92t3tpace4rfo14sclpmkpuev2ad74@4ax.com...
>
> If this guy saw the future, how come he could not see the Tvl and the
> Free State losing the Anglo Boer War?
>
> As far as I know, he stayed with a commando telling them all the time
> they are winningthe war.
>
>
>
> On 19 Jun 2006 03:11:06 -0700, "NewsGuy"
> wrote:
>
>> Nico Coetzee from Great Brak River (Cape South Coast) continues the
>> discussion of the prophecies of the Boere Seer "Oom Klasie" van
>> Rensburg (1864 -1926) and the incredible way in which these predictions
>> actually came true and are coming true today, even as you are reading
>> this.
>> Other experts on these prophesies who called in were "Adam from
>> England" who told about the recent bombings in London and other
>> occurrences in Britain happening exactly as predicted, and Julie van
>> Rensburg (no relation of the Seer) from Durban, Natal, who had
>> translated some of Adriaan Snyman's books about the Seer.
>> Nico relates how Adriaan Snyman was ridiculed for for publishing Oom
>> Klasie's prophesies about Luderitz Harbor and the "Impossible" repair
>> of the sand-dune covered railroad line to Prieska, and how these
>> predictions came true and the ridiculers had to eat their words. Nico
>> provides an eye-witness account of the condition of the rebuilt harbor
>> and railroad line.
>> Nico, Adam and Julie relate what the Seer's predicted will happen next
>> to the USA, Britain, Germany, the Middle East, and other countries, how
>> the Third World War will start and how the Boerevolk will provide a
>> safe haven for flocks of new white immigrants.
>> How do these predictions concern you? Listen to find out.
>> Click Here for FREE .mp3:
>> http://therightperspectivepodcastblog.blogspot.com/2006/06/h ello-africa-seer-van-rensburg-part-2.html
>> Part One Available Here:
>> http://therightperspectivepodcastblog.blogspot.com/2006/06/h ello-africa-seer-van-rensburg.html
>> The Right Perspective - Heard LIVE every Friday 10pm EST over shortwave
>> WWCR 3.215 Mhz and the Internet at www.therightperspective.com.
>> Subscribe to RSS Feed:
>> http://feeds.feedburner.com/TheRightPerspectivePodcastBlog
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| Re: Seer van Rensburg's Prohpechies Revealed on "Hello, Africa!" [boodskap #110571 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #110568] |
Di, 20 Junie 2006 11:58 |
Ferdi Greyling
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On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:07:10 +0200, "Torreke" wrote:
> There is no doubt about the fact that Siener van Rensburg did have the
> ability to "see" things that other people did not.
Many people have that. Usually due to substance abuse.
That is not unusual; my
> girl friend at varsity had similar abilities. I think all people sometimes
> have the experience of "just knowing" without any reasonable explanation of
> how you knew. Siener was a member of De La Reys commando during the A-B
> War and warned the Genl regularly about the movements of British troops. De
> La Rey's successes as guerilla leader was not only because of his
> exceptionally brilliant military brain, but also partly because of what
> Siener "saw".
Never is this mentioned in any worthwhile biography on De la Rey.
Neither did De la Rey ever say this himself.
It was, however, said that like any really good commander, De la Rey
kept the old man as a way to hype up the troops who went through some
pretty shit times.
De la Rey based his war on very, very basic rules: Have good
intelligence (i.e. know the terrain and be informed of anything moving
in it), only attack when you force is superior and when you have the
advantage of surprise.
There were other successfull commando's (under Beyers, for example)
who has a number of thundering Calivist dominees with them parying a
great deal. Do you ascribe their success to God intervening of the
belaf of the dominees?
e.g. that of Genl. De la Rey. It is
> well documented that he warned De La Rey about the latter's death several
> weeks before De La Rey was killed by the Police.
Give us some details and sources.
De la Rey was killed by a bullet fired by a policeman, but I am sure
you know the circumstances - the Vorster gang, the road block, the
driver misreading the road block etc.
A second problem is when people rely more on Siener's visions than
on the
> Bible. Siener was an ordinary sinner, in spite of his exceptional talent.
We are still with the first question: If Siener could see the future
clearly, why did he not tell De la Rey and the other Boer leaders that
they are going to lose the war and they must stop fighting?
Here is an eye witness acoount: Deneys Reitz in Commando:
"Attached to his person was a prophet, van Rensburg, a strange
character, with long flowing beard and wild fanatical eyes, who
dreamed dreams, and pretended to be possessed of occult powers. I
personally witnessed one of the lucky hits to which he owed his
reputation, for one morning while we were congregated around the
General's cart, van Rensburg was expounding his latest vision to-a
hushed audience. It ran of a black bull and a red bull fighting -and
goring each other, until at length the red bull sank defeated to its
knees, which he interpreted to mean that the British would soon be in
like case. As he stood before us, his arms outstretched and his eyes
ablaze, he suddenly called Out: 'See, who comes?'; and, looking up, we
made out a distant horseman spurring towards us front the cast. We
waited in silence for the rider. When he came up, travel-stained and
weary, he produced a letter from General Botha, hundreds of miles
away.
When General de la Rey opened and read it, his face lighted up, and in
a voice ringing with emotion he said: 'Men, believe me, the proud
enemy is humbled' (Die trotse vijand se nek is gebuig). He went on to
tell us that the letter contained news that the English had proposed a
peace conference. Coming immediately upon the prophecy, it was a
dramatic moment and I was impressed, even although I suspected that
van Rensburg had stage-managed the scene. Of General de la Rey's
sincerity there could be no doubt, for he was not a man to stoop to
subterfuge, and I knew that he firmly believed in the seer's
predictions.
These tidings created a great deal of stir and excitement during the
next few days, and many of the men thought that the war was as good as
over.
A peace conference did in fact take place a little later between
General Botha and Lord Kitchener, but it proved abortive, and the only
immediate result was to establish van Rensburg's reputation more
firmly than ever. "
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| Re: Seer van Rensburg's Prohpechies Revealed on "Hello, Africa!" [boodskap #110575 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #110571] |
Wo, 21 Junie 2006 08:48 |
Torreke
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Ferdi,
I will respond later with "proof". For now I will only touch on on a few
points that I think is pertinent:
1.) I get the feeling that you don't believe that there is any truth in
what is usually referred to under the term "paranormal". Am I correct
herein?
2.) Do you believe that the Voortrekkers' victory at Blood River had
anything to do with their vow to God? - or that the people of Oberammergau's
delivery from disease had anything to do with their vow?
3.) While you challenge me to provide reliable sources for what I said about
Seer van Rensburg and De La Rey, you failed to provide any such sources
yourself for your claims about De La Rey.
4.) I would readily admit that my statement that his successes as guerilla
leader could partly be attributed to the information provided by the Seer,
needs correction, and that I should rather have said that it "was perceived"
to be that way. My information about this aspect did not come in the first
place from published sources, but from an "eyewitness account" in the form
of my grandfather who was a member of De La Rey's commando. I have enough
reason to respect the testimony of my grandfather who spoke from personal
experience, especially in view of the fact that he belonged to the same
faith as Kruger and accepted the same principle of Sola Scriptura. I have
also read reliable sources and biographies about De La Rey. Not recently,
though; so I will have to do some digging before I provide any references.
And if I cannot find "proof", I will be the first person to admit that I was
mistaken herein.
Torreke
"Ferdi Greyling" skryf in boodskap news:8gnf92p86fspgf1ib4n7fjs0lv4d0e0ur8@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:07:10 +0200, "Torreke" wrote:
>
>
> the
>> ability to "see" things that other people did not.
>
> Many people have that. Usually due to substance abuse.
>
> > girl friend at varsity had similar abilities. I think all people
>> sometimes
>> have the experience of "just knowing" without any reasonable explanation
>> of
>> how you knew. Siener was a member of De La Reys commando during the A-B
>> War and warned the Genl regularly about the movements of British troops.
>> De
>> La Rey's successes as guerilla leader was not only because of his
>> exceptionally brilliant military brain, but also partly because of what
>> Siener "saw".
>
> Never is this mentioned in any worthwhile biography on De la Rey.
> Neither did De la Rey ever say this himself.
> It was, however, said that like any really good commander, De la Rey
> kept the old man as a way to hype up the troops who went through some
> pretty shit times.
>
> De la Rey based his war on very, very basic rules: Have good
> intelligence (i.e. know the terrain and be informed of anything moving
> in it), only attack when you force is superior and when you have the
> advantage of surprise.
>
> There were other successfull commando's (under Beyers, for example)
> who has a number of thundering Calivist dominees with them parying a
> great deal. Do you ascribe their success to God intervening of the
> belaf of the dominees?
>
>
> > well documented that he warned De La Rey about the latter's death several
>> weeks before De La Rey was killed by the Police.
>
>
> Give us some details and sources.
> De la Rey was killed by a bullet fired by a policeman, but I am sure
> you know the circumstances - the Vorster gang, the road block, the
> driver misreading the road block etc.
>
> hushed audience. It ran of a black bull and a red bull fighting -and
> goring each other, until at length the red bull sank defeated to its
> knees, which he interpreted to mean that the British would soon be in
> like case. As he stood before us, his arms outstretched and his eyes
> ablaze, he suddenly called Out: 'See, who comes?'; and, looking up, we
> made out a distant horseman spurring towards us front the cast. We
> waited in silence for the rider. When he came up, travel-stained and
> weary, he produced a letter from General Botha, hundreds of miles
> away.
> When General de la Rey opened and read it, his face lighted up, and in
> a voice ringing with emotion he said: 'Men, believe me, the proud
> enemy is humbled' (Die trotse vijand se nek is gebuig). He went on to
> tell us that the letter contained news that the English had proposed a
> peace conference. Coming immediately upon the prophecy, it was a
> dramatic moment and I was impressed, even although I suspected that
> van Rensburg had stage-managed the scene. Of General de la Rey's
> sincerity there could be no doubt, for he was not a man to stoop to
> subterfuge, and I knew that he firmly believed in the seer's
> predictions.
> These tidings created a great deal of stir and excitement during the
> next few days, and many of the men thought that the war was as good as
> over.
> A peace conference did in fact take place a little later between
> General Botha and Lord Kitchener, but it proved abortive, and the only
> immediate result was to establish van Rensburg's reputation more
> firmly than ever. "
>
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| Re: Seer van Rensburg's Prohpechies Revealed on "Hello, Africa!" [boodskap #110576 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #110575] |
Wo, 21 Junie 2006 09:52 |
Ferdi Greyling
Boodskappe: 1232
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On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:48:54 +0200, "Torreke" wrote:
> Ferdi,
>
> I will respond later with "proof". For now I will only touch on on a few
> points that I think is pertinent:
>
> 1.) I get the feeling that you don't believe that there is any truth in
> what is usually referred to under the term "paranormal". Am I correct
> herein?
No. Flatly denying it at all times is the same as believing it flatly
it at all times witout asking for some sort of confirmation.
I have what is called "an open mind" (open to what? but never mind).
I DO, however, believe that due to the difficutly in obtaining any
sort of objectivity with these things, there are a large number of
shysters operating in that area and one must be very, very sceptical
at all times.
And in this case because here we are dealing with a "prophet" who is
long dead and was probably illiterate, never left any detailed account
of his visions and is used by right wingers to push a political agenda
in emotionally volatile times and places (the white right in SA
today).
> 2.) Do you believe that the Voortrekkers' victory at Blood River had
> anything to do with their vow to God? - or that the people of Oberammergau's
> delivery from disease had anything to do with their vow?
The vow at Blood River was actually taken a week AFTER the battle.
That bit was brought to light by the historian Floors van Jaarsveld
(who's research into this was academically published and accepted, if
I remember it correctly) and for this he was tarred and feathered by
Eugene Terre'Blanche and some right wing people in the 80's.
Thought you may find that interesting.
About Oberammergau I know nothing. Thus I have no ideas about it.
3.) While you challenge me to provide reliable sources for what I
said about
> Seer van Rensburg and De La Rey, you failed to provide any such sources
> yourself for your claims about De La Rey.
1. Biography by Johannes Meintjies.
De La Rey. Lion of the West - a Biography
Author MEINTJIES, Johannes
2. The Boer War by Thomas Packenham, al though Packenham probably drew
a lot on Meintjies's research. Nice book, the one by Packenham.
3. Deneys Reitz, which I could quote to you because I found a web site
that carries a digital text of the book.
I do not remember the Meintjies book in detail, though, so some of my
memory might be faulty there.
I can also add here numerous discussion with a friend - maj John
Keene, a military historian - but this cannot be offered as any
objective proof. It is merely the memory of discussions.
I do remember that the biography by Meintjies was readable, though not
brilliant, and seems to be accepted academically as a decently
researched biography.
> 4.) I would readily admit that my statement that his successes as guerilla
> leader could partly be attributed to the information provided by the Seer,
> needs correction, and that I should rather have said that it "was perceived"
> to be that way. My information about this aspect did not come in the first
> place from published sources, but from an "eyewitness account" in the form
> of my grandfather who was a member of De La Rey's commando. I have enough
> reason to respect the testimony of my grandfather who spoke from personal
> experience, especially in view of the fact that he belonged to the same
> faith as Kruger and accepted the same principle of Sola Scriptura. I have
> also read reliable sources and biographies about De La Rey. Not recently,
> though; so I will have to do some digging before I provide any references.
>
> And if I cannot find "proof", I will be the first person to admit that I was
> mistaken herein.
>
> Torreke
But, in the end, as I said - We are still left with the first
question: If Siener could see the future clearly, why did he not tell
De la Rey and the other Boer leaders that they are going to lose the
war and they must stop fighting?
Or even better, not even start the fighting, but make a deal with the
British?
He kept on telling them they are going to win - and he was dead wrong
on that one. Yet that seems to be the basis for his reputaion today?
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| Re: Seer van Rensburg's Prohpechies Revealed on "Hello, Africa!" [boodskap #110582 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #110581] |
Wo, 21 Junie 2006 12:01 |
Ferdi Greyling
Boodskappe: 1232
Geregistreer: Mei 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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On 21 Jun 2006 04:26:08 -0700, "Riaan" wrote:
> Hoekom nou die Engels tussen jou en Torreke Ferdi ??
Ons probeer fancy wees. Ons het albei kravatte aangesit, G&T ingeskink
en konverseer nou met die pinkie in die lug, ou perd...
Wat eintlik gebeur het is dat hy in die Engelse groep gepos het en ek
hom daar geantwoord het. Sy of my pos was ge-cross post hiernatoe en
vandaar af het al ons posse albei groepe toe gegaan.
Ek is rerig te lui om te vertaal, swaer... so gooi 'n gin en bear with
us, so to speak obiter dictum et cetera.
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| Re: Seer van Rensburg's Prohpechies Revealed on "Hello, Africa!" [boodskap #110583 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #110576] |
Wo, 21 Junie 2006 13:28 |
Torreke
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"Ferdi Greyling" skryf in boodskap news:p84i929ojig3tvd8n5rds08f5cfee6oi5h@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:48:54 +0200, "Torreke" wrote:
>
> > I will respond later with "proof". For now I will only touch on on a few
>> points that I think is pertinent:
>> 1.) I get the feeling that you don't believe that there is any truth in
>> what is usually referred to under the term "paranormal". Am I correct
>> herein?
>
> No. Flatly denying it at all times is the same as believing it flatly
> it at all times witout asking for some sort of confirmation.
>
> I have what is called "an open mind" (open to what? but never mind).
> I DO, however, believe that due to the difficutly in obtaining any
> sort of objectivity with these things, there are a large number of
> shysters operating in that area and one must be very, very sceptical
> at all times.
We are in full agreement on this point.
>
> And in this case because here we are dealing with a "prophet" who is
> long dead and was probably illiterate, never left any detailed account
> of his visions and is used by right wingers to push a political agenda
> in emotionally volatile times and places (the white right in SA
> today).
Again we are in full agreement.
I did say that there is doubt about the contents of his visions. I did say
he was a sinner (like all of us) and therefore what he "saw" and said should
be tested. I did state more than once that his visions are interpreted by
the right wingers to suit their racist ideology, and their methods of
interpretation do not comply with recognised and acceptable principles of
text interpretation.
>
>
> > delivery from disease had anything to do with their vow?
>
> The vow at Blood River was actually taken a week AFTER the battle.
> That bit was brought to light by the historian Floors van Jaarsveld
> (who's research into this was academically published and accepted, if
> I remember it correctly) and for this he was tarred and feathered by
> Eugene Terre'Blanche and some right wing people in the 80's.
> Thought you may find that interesting.
I am glad that you say "if I remember it correctly". You draw on distant
memory as I am also now drawing on distant memory and speak under
correction. My recollection of the facts are that Van Jaarsveld's research
showed that the vow was not made in the exact words as we know them today
before the Battle of Blood River and
that certain parts of it, e.g. that they promised to "build a church" and
"tell our children to share with us herein" was added after the
event. One would have to do research on it.
However, there is more to the vow of 16 December than the victory at Blood
River. The Boers gathered at Paardekraal on 16 December (? year), to renew
the vow, built a rock mount and pledge that they would fight until they get
their independence back. That marked the beginning of the 1st A-B War, the
outcome of which, after their decisive victory at Majuba, is history.
> About Oberammergau I know nothing. Thus I have no ideas about it.
I am surprised that you don't know what I am referring to. The people of
Oberammergau was plagued by an unknown disease that killed scores. Then
they made a vow that, should God deliver them from the disease, they would
once in four (?) years stage the trial and crucifixtion of Jesus. They were
indeed saved from the disease and they kept their side of the vow in the
form of the famous "passion play" ("passiespele") of Oberammergau.
>
> > Seer van Rensburg and De La Rey, you failed to provide any such sources
>> yourself for your claims about De La Rey.
>
> 1. Biography by Johannes Meintjies.
> De La Rey. Lion of the West - a Biography
> Author MEINTJIES, Johannes
>
> 2. The Boer War by Thomas Packenham, al though Packenham probably drew
> a lot on Meintjies's research. Nice book, the one by Packenham.
>
> 3. Deneys Reitz, which I could quote to you because I found a web site
> that carries a digital text of the book.
>
>
> I do not remember the Meintjies book in detail, though, so some of my
> memory might be faulty there.
I also read Meintjies's book. An excellent book that is as fascinating as
some of the best fiction stories I have ever read! But my memory is also
vague; that's why I said I would have to do some "digging" before I come up
with "proof".
I have read some parts of Thomas Packenham's book, but not all of it - also
years ago. I also saw an interview on television with Packenham when the
book was published. An excellent work!
I have on my bookshelf a book with the title "Beroemde Suid-Afrikaanse
Krygsmanne" ("Famous South African Soldiers") with quite a good article
about De la Rey. However, it also relies heavily on Meintjies and one is
not sure how much independent research was done. Before I quote from it, I
would like to reread the article again.
>
> I can also add here numerous discussion with a friend - maj John
> Keene, a military historian - but this cannot be offered as any
> objective proof. It is merely the memory of discussions.
>
> I do remember that the biography by Meintjies was readable, though not
> brilliant, and seems to be accepted academically as a decently
> researched biography.
>
> guerilla
>> leader could partly be attributed to the information provided by the Seer,
>> needs correction, and that I should rather have said that it "was
>> perceived"
>> to be that way. My information about this aspect did not come in the
>> first
>> place from published sources, but from an "eyewitness account" in the form
>> of my grandfather who was a member of De La Rey's commando. I have enough
>> reason to respect the testimony of my grandfather who spoke from personal
>> experience, especially in view of the fact that he belonged to the same
>> faith as Kruger and accepted the same principle of Sola Scriptura. I have
>> also read reliable sources and biographies about De La Rey. Not recently,
>> though; so I will have to do some digging before I provide any references.
>> And if I cannot find "proof", I will be the first person to admit that I
>> was
>> mistaken herein.
>> Torreke
>
> But, in the end, as I said - We are still left with the first
> question: If Siener could see the future clearly, why did he not tell
> De la Rey and the other Boer leaders that they are going to lose the
> war and they must stop fighting?
I don't know!!!
However, I think one would have to distinguish between what Seer actually
saw in visions, which by the very nature of it happens unvoluntarily, and
what he personally hoped and wished and (like most Boers) desperately wanted
to believe! As I said, he was also a sinner, not a saint, and one would
suspect that he also used his gift to try and manipulate De la Rey and the
other Boer generals to continue the war. Just like one has to distinguish
at the present moment between what he actually "saw" and what the right
wingers desperately want to believe and put in his mouth.
>
> Or even better, not even start the fighting, but make a deal with the
> British?
> He kept on telling them they are going to win - and he was dead wrong
> on that one. Yet that seems to be the basis for his reputaion today?
As you probably know, De la Rey was opposed to the war until the very last
minute. His courageous words to Pres. Kruger when arguing against going to
war and to rather seek a negotiated settlement "You will still find me in
the saddle long
after you and the bunch that make war with their mouths have fled the
country" are famous. Was he influenced by the Seer who might have told him
that the Boers would loose the war or only by the odds of winning a war
against the mighty British Empire? We would probably never know.
I have no recollection that I have ever read anywhere that the Seer kept on
telling them that they would win the war. Accepting what you say as true,
one must once again ask: Was it maybe wishful thinking, hiding behind his
exceptional gift? Or was he maybe influenced by the situation in De la
Rey's commando, the only one that was in a position to continue the war,
with well fed horses, firearms and ammunition, food for the soldiers? We
can only guess, because I don't think there is any realiable source
available. Adriaan Snyman, most definitely, is not a reliable source.
Having read Meintjies, you would probably recall that De la Rey was
initially just as strongly opposed to stop the war as he was to start it; he
even considered to lead the Western-Transvaal in seceding from the ZAR and
continue the war. Again, was he influenced by the Seer in his opposition to
stop the war? We don't know! What we do know is that he was strongly
opposed to the conditions laid down in the peace treaty. However, when he
saw the position that the other commandos found themselves in, he was the
one that finally persuaded the other generals to sign the treaty with his
(again famous) words: "You talk about the 'bitter end'. ...this is the
bitter end."
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| Re: Seer van Rensburg's Prohpechies Revealed on "Hello, Africa!" [boodskap #110587 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #110582] |
Wo, 21 Junie 2006 22:38 |
bouer
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Geregistreer: Desember 2003
Karma: 0
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Ferdi Greyling skryf
> On 21 Jun 2006 04:26:08 -0700, "Riaan"
> wrote:
>
>
> Ons probeer fancy wees. Ons het albei kravatte aangesit, G&T ingeskink
> en konverseer nou met die pinkie in die lug, ou perd...
Ha, ha, ha. Ek was vir 'n paar dae nie aktief op die
nuusgroep nie, omdat my neef van Kaapstad en sy
vrou hier by ons was vir tien dae en ek deels uit die
dorp was. Noudat ek terug is, kom ek af op die
interessante gesels.
Glo ek aan heldersiendheid? Ek is versigtig
om "nee" te sê, want ek het een ervaring gehad
wat my laat wonder het oor clairvoyance. Eendag,
in Durban, drink en en 'n vriendin tee. In die teekamer
is daar 'n man, geklee in besigheidspak, Engels
pratend, maar dis duidelik dat hy fortuin vertel uit
teeblare. My vriendin en ek laat toe ook ons fortuin
vertel, vir die grap. Op daardie stadium was ek
op pad om, volgens my opinie, oujongnooi te word,
baie gewillig om my lewe te slyt in die diens van
swart onderwys. Toe die man my toe nou vertel
dat ek binne ses maande oorsee sal gaan en vier
kinders sou hê, het ek in sy gesig gelag en vir hom
gesê ek dink nie dis moontlik nie. Hy was snaaks
onwillig om my te glo, en ondervra my of ek nie
enigiemand ken wat my oorsee sal uit nooi nie.
Hy was ook baie angstig dat ek moes gaan, want
hy vertel my dat ek baie gelukkig sou wees. Vir
my vriendin, jonger en meer aantreklik as ek, vertel
hy dat haar hart nog sewe keer gebreek sou word.
Ons is toe lag lag daar weg.
Binne ses maande, egter, is ek op pad oorsee
om met my huidige man te gaan trou, en ek het
nou vier kinders.
Gloudina
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| Re: Seer van Rensburg's Prohpechies Revealed on "Hello, Africa!" [boodskap #110593 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #110592] |
Do, 22 Junie 2006 15:23 |
bouer
Boodskappe: 4795
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Ferdi Greyling skryf
> On 21 Jun 2006 15:38:06 -0700, "Hessie" wrote:
>
>
> > om met my huidige man te gaan trou, en ek het
>> nou vier kinders.
>
> En die vriendin?
Snaaks genoeg, die vriendin wat by my was,
jonger as ek, en eintlik die kamermaat van my
jonger suster ( vir wie ons gesit en wag het), was
eintlik verlief op die neef van my wat die afgelope
twee weke hier vir ons in Ottawa kom kuier het.
Ek dink nie hy was genoeg geinteresseerd nie,
dus het hy haar hart gebreek. Ek weet nie hoeveel
keer daarna haar hart nog gebreek is nie.
Gloudina
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| Re: Seer van Rensburg's Prohpechies Revealed on "Hello, Africa!" [boodskap #110595 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #110593] |
Vr, 23 Junie 2006 09:34 |
Ferdi Greyling
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Geregistreer: Mei 2006
Karma: 0
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On 22 Jun 2006 08:23:28 -0700, "Hessie" wrote:
Snaaks genoeg, die vriendin wat by my was,
> jonger as ek, en eintlik die kamermaat van my
> jonger suster ( vir wie ons gesit en wag het), was
> eintlik verlief op die neef van my wat die afgelope
> twee weke hier vir ons in Ottawa kom kuier het.
> Ek dink nie hy was genoeg geinteresseerd nie,
> dus het hy haar hart gebreek. Ek weet nie hoeveel
> keer daarna haar hart nog gebreek is nie.
>
> Gloudina
Dis belangrik vir die wetenskaplikheid van die ding...
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| Re: Seer van Rensburg's Prohpechies Revealed on "Hello, Africa!" [boodskap #110601 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #110595] |
Ma, 26 Junie 2006 08:20 |
Torreke
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My tante (pa se suster) wat by haar dogter en skoonseun in die Karoo was het
op dieselfde tydstip waarop my pa in die Verre Noord-Transvaal aan 'n
hartaanval oorlede is, hom gesien. Sy het agterna vertel dat hy vir haar
gesê het dat hy nie kon gaan sonder om haar te groet nie, en nog een ander
wat meer persoonlik van aard was. Sy het haar dogter en skoonseun geroep en
vir hulle daarvan vertel. Hulle wou haar nie glo nie, maar het kort daarna
wel die berig van sy dood ontvang. As jy dit wil kontrolleer, Ferdi, sal ek
jou die naam en adres van die skoonseun gee. Vir die doeleindes van
hierdie pos, dink ek, dit is genoeg as ek sê dat die skoonseun 'n dienende
predikant van die Gereformeerde Kerke is.
Volgens die Handboek wat vir Sielkunde 1 studente by feitlik al die
universiteite in SA voorgeskryf word en waaraan dosente van feitlik al die
Universiteite meegewerk het, is daar verhale soos dié hierbo oor die hele
wêreld aangeteken. Die Sielkunde handboek weier egter om standpunt in te
neem oor die waarde van dié getuienis vir 'n antwoord op die vraag oor lewe
na die dood .
Eintlik lagwekkend dié manier waarop mense wegskram daarvan om mense se
getuienis oor paranormale dinge wat met hulle gebeur het, te aanvaar. En
dan is dit dikwels mense wat glo in die bestaan van God - 'n geestelike Wese
wat hulle nie sintuiglik kan waarneem nie! As 2 of 3 getuienis voor 'n hof
basies dieselfde oog- en oorgetuienis sou lewer oor wat hulle gesien of
persoonlik beleef het, sou die hof dit geredelik as die waarheid aanvaar,
solank dit net nie op die paranormale vlak lê nie (dan sou die hof hom
waarskynlik ook van "drugs" verdink, soos jy, Ferdi) - dieselfde hof wat
mense 'n eed laat neem met die woorde "so help my God"! Kyk ook my ander
antwoord aan Hessie oor die bestaan van God.
"Ferdi Greyling" skryf in boodskap news:mbdn9253j5983342gjn42aathv2ekr1fd4@4ax.com...
> On 22 Jun 2006 08:23:28 -0700, "Hessie" wrote:
>
> > jonger as ek, en eintlik die kamermaat van my
>> jonger suster ( vir wie ons gesit en wag het), was
>> eintlik verlief op die neef van my wat die afgelope
>> twee weke hier vir ons in Ottawa kom kuier het.
>> Ek dink nie hy was genoeg geinteresseerd nie,
>> dus het hy haar hart gebreek. Ek weet nie hoeveel
>> keer daarna haar hart nog gebreek is nie.
>> Gloudina
>
> Dis belangrik vir die wetenskaplikheid van die ding...
>
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| Re: Seer van Rensburg's Prohpechies Revealed on "Hello, Africa!" [boodskap #110606 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #110601] |
Ma, 26 Junie 2006 12:20 |
Ferdi Greyling
Boodskappe: 1232
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Karma: 0
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On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:20:13 +0200, "Torreke" wrote:
> My tante (pa se suster) wat by haar dogter en skoonseun in die Karoo was het
> op dieselfde tydstip waarop my pa in die Verre Noord-Transvaal aan 'n
> hartaanval oorlede is, hom gesien.
My vrou se tannie, 'n hardegat levelheaded oud-skoolhoof, het, to sy
jonk was by twee geleenthede mense gesien. Een was iemand wat in 'n
stoel gesit het met klere uit 'n ander tydperk aan. Die omstandighede
was van so 'n aard dat dit nie iemand met 'n kostuum of so iets kon wees
nie. Die tannie was ook nie siek, dronk of mal nie en sy lieg nie.
Ek glo haar.
Die probleem is in ons straat is daar 'n gereelde bedelaar wat duidelik
skisofrenies is. Hy hoor en sien ook mense en dinge. Die beste
voorbeeld is daai ou wat die Nobelprys by Princeton gekry het.
Dan het ek ook mense op varsity geken wat mense gesien en gehoor het
nadat hulle dwelms geneem het. Van hulle het ook acid flashbacks
gekry.
Dan het ek ook by geleentheid my gewaan ek sien 'n vampire in die
spruit in Oudtshoorn. Dit was in std 8 toe ek laatmiddag huis toe
gestap het nadat ek een van Christopher Lee se Dracula-flieks gekyk
het, waarvan ek nog altyd baie gehou het.
Dan is daar natuurlik talle opgetekende gevalle van politici/generaals
wat die idee van bonatuurlike verskynsels onder hul soldate of
volgelinge geplant het om hul eie politieke agendas te dien.
Die probleem is dus soos volg: 'n Boom is 'n maklike ding. As jy se daar
staan 'n boom in jou tuin, stuur jy my 'n foto om dit te bewys. As ek
dit wil kontroleer, kan ek iemand in jou dorp bel om dit te gaan
uitcheck. Daardie moontlikheid, in fact, maak dat jy nie sommer sal
lieg oor die boom in jou tuin nie.
Maar as mens buite die fisieke wereld gaan, waarin ons bewussyne
bestaan, is daar nie 'n manier om op te check nie. En daar is baie
shysters, druggies, skisofrene en deur vrees onthutste mense in die
wereld.
Dus. terwyl dit raadsaam is om jou eerder te glo oor 'n boom in jou
tuin, is dit eerder raadsaam om jou getuienis ('n spreekwoordelik
"jou"hier) oor die gesig wat jy gesien het (veral as dit instruksies
vir my bevat of impliseer) te bevraagteken.
Maar jy stem saam hiermee, het jy reeds gese.
Ek glo jou oor jou tannie. Ek is hoogs skepties oor Siener van
Rensburg.
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| Re: Seer van Rensburg's Prohpechies Revealed on "Hello, Africa!" [boodskap #110607 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #110606] |
Ma, 26 Junie 2006 12:31 |
Torreke
Boodskappe: 1165
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"Ferdi Greyling" skryf in boodskap news:2jjv92hs0hgc1o1te5e30e95getb960a9j@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:20:13 +0200, "Torreke" wrote:
>
> Karoo was het
>> op dieselfde tydstip waarop my pa in die Verre Noord-Transvaal aan 'n
>> hartaanval oorlede is, hom gesien.
>
> My vrou se tannie, 'n hardegat levelheaded oud-skoolhoof, het, to sy
> jonk was by twee geleenthede mense gesien. Een was iemand wat in n
> stoel gesit het met klere uit 'n ander tydperk aan. Die omstandighede
> was van so 'n aard dat dit nie iemand met 'n kostuum of so iets kon wees
> nie. Die tannie was ook nie siek, dronk of mal nie en sy lieg nie.
>
> Ek glo haar.
>
> Die probleem is in ons straat is daar 'n gereelde bedelaar wat duidelik
> skisofrenies is. Hy hoor en sien ook mense en dinge. Die beste
> voorbeeld is daai ou wat die Nobelprys by Princeton gekry het.
>
> Dan het ek ook mense op varsity geken wat mense gesien en gehoor het
> nadat hulle dwelms geneem het. Van hulle het ook acid flashbacks
> gekry.
>
> Dan het ek ook by geleentheid my gewaan ek sien 'n vampire in die
> spruit in Oudtshoorn. Dit was in std 8 toe ek laatmiddag huis toe
> gestap het nadat ek een van Christopher Lee se Dracula-flieks gekyk
> het, waarvan ek nog altyd baie gehou het.
>
> Dan is daar natuurlik talle opgetekende gevalle van politici/generaals
> wat die idee van bonatuurlike verskynsels onder hul soldate of
> volgelinge geplant het om hul eie politieke agendas te dien.
>
> Die probleem is dus soos volg: 'n Boom is 'n maklike ding. As jy se daar
> staan 'n boom in jou tuin, stuur jy my 'n foto om dit te bewys. As ek
> dit wil kontroleer, kan ek iemand in jou dorp bel om dit te gaan
> uitcheck. Daardie moontlikheid, in fact, maak dat jy nie sommer sal
> lieg oor die boom in jou tuin nie.
>
> Maar as mens buite die fisieke wereld gaan, waarin ons bewussyne
> bestaan, is daar nie 'n manier om op te check nie. En daar is baie
> shysters, druggies, skisofrene en deur vrees onthutste mense in die
> wereld.
>
> Dus. terwyl dit raadsaam is om jou eerder te glo oor 'n boom in jou
> tuin, is dit eerder raadsaam om jou getuienis ('n spreekwoordelik
> "jou"hier) oor die gesig wat jy gesien het (veral as dit instruksies
> vir my bevat of impliseer) te bevraagteken.
> Maar jy stem saam hiermee, het jy reeds gese.
>
> Ek glo jou oor jou tannie. Ek is hoogs skepties oor Siener van
> Rensburg.
Dankie vir die glo oor my tante.
Dat Siener De la Rey se dood reg voorspel en hom daarvoor gewaarsku het, is
ek ook seker van - en nie uit Adriaan Snyman se geskrifte nie. Maar ek
skuld jou nog die "bewyse".
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| Re: Seer van Rensburg's Prohpechies Revealed on "Hello, Africa!" [boodskap #110694 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #110607] |
Di, 04 Julie 2006 10:46 |
Torreke
Boodskappe: 1165
Geregistreer: April 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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"Torreke" skryf in boodskap news:e7ok3e$cam$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
>
> "Ferdi Greyling" wrote in message
> news:2jjv92hs0hgc1o1te5e30e95getb960a9j@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:20:13 +0200, "Torreke" wrote:
>> > Karoo was het
>>> op dieselfde tydstip waarop my pa in die Verre Noord-Transvaal aan 'n
>>> hartaanval oorlede is, hom gesien.
>> My vrou se tannie, 'n hardegat levelheaded oud-skoolhoof, het, to sy
>> jonk was by twee geleenthede mense gesien. Een was iemand wat in n
>> stoel gesit het met klere uit 'n ander tydperk aan. Die omstandighede
>> was van so 'n aard dat dit nie iemand met 'n kostuum of so iets kon wees
>> nie. Die tannie was ook nie siek, dronk of mal nie en sy lieg nie.
>> Ek glo haar.
>> Die probleem is in ons straat is daar 'n gereelde bedelaar wat duidelik
>> skisofrenies is. Hy hoor en sien ook mense en dinge. Die beste
>> voorbeeld is daai ou wat die Nobelprys by Princeton gekry het.
>> Dan het ek ook mense op varsity geken wat mense gesien en gehoor het
>> nadat hulle dwelms geneem het. Van hulle het ook acid flashbacks
>> gekry.
>> Dan het ek ook by geleentheid my gewaan ek sien 'n vampire in die
>> spruit in Oudtshoorn. Dit was in std 8 toe ek laatmiddag huis toe
>> gestap het nadat ek een van Christopher Lee se Dracula-flieks gekyk
>> het, waarvan ek nog altyd baie gehou het.
>> Dan is daar natuurlik talle opgetekende gevalle van politici/generaals
>> wat die idee van bonatuurlike verskynsels onder hul soldate of
>> volgelinge geplant het om hul eie politieke agendas te dien.
>> Die probleem is dus soos volg: 'n Boom is 'n maklike ding. As jy se daar
>> staan 'n boom in jou tuin, stuur jy my 'n foto om dit te bewys. As ek
>> dit wil kontroleer, kan ek iemand in jou dorp bel om dit te gaan
>> uitcheck. Daardie moontlikheid, in fact, maak dat jy nie sommer sal
>> lieg oor die boom in jou tuin nie.
>> Maar as mens buite die fisieke wereld gaan, waarin ons bewussyne
>> bestaan, is daar nie 'n manier om op te check nie. En daar is baie
>> shysters, druggies, skisofrene en deur vrees onthutste mense in die
>> wereld.
>> Dus. terwyl dit raadsaam is om jou eerder te glo oor 'n boom in jou
>> tuin, is dit eerder raadsaam om jou getuienis ('n spreekwoordelik
>> "jou"hier) oor die gesig wat jy gesien het (veral as dit instruksies
>> vir my bevat of impliseer) te bevraagteken.
>> Maar jy stem saam hiermee, het jy reeds gese.
>> Ek glo jou oor jou tannie. Ek is hoogs skepties oor Siener van
>> Rensburg.
>
> Dankie vir die glo oor my tante.
>
> Dat Siener De la Rey se dood reg voorspel en hom daarvoor gewaarsku het,
> is ek ook seker van - en nie uit Adriaan Snyman se geskrifte nie. Maar ek
> skuld jou nog die "bewyse".
Die volgende 2 aanhalings uit "Beroemde Suid-Afrikaanse Krygsmanne" het
betrekking. Fransjohan Pretorius het die bydrae geskryf. Ek weet niks van
hom nie, maar uit die artikel (en aanhalings) is dit duidelik dat hy wel
"huiswerk" gedoen het voordat hy sy bydrae geskryf het en dat hy krities met
die getuienis omgaan.
"Wanneer De la Rey in sy herinneringe melding maak van God se wil,
onderbreek hy sy verhaal om iets van Niklaas oftewel Siener van Rensburg te
vertel. Die verhouding tussen die twee was besonder interessant. De la Rey
was persoonlik baie godsdienstig. Hy het geglo in die lewe na die dood, en
het besef dat daar veel geheimenisse is wat die mens as gewone sterfling nie
kan raaksien nie. Reeds in Oktober 1899 het die 37-jarige Siener van
Rensburg die kommando van De la Rey na Kimberley vergesel. Nadat Van
Rensburg een nag vermis was, het hy met 'n visie oor die verloop van die
oorlog vorendag gekom wat hom onder die aandag van De la Rey gebring het.
Van toe af was De la Rey geïnteresseerd in sy visies oor die oorlog en die
verklarings wat mense daaraan gegee het. Hy het trouens met eerbied daarvan
kennis geneem. Daar word selfs beweer dat De la Rey hom voor elke geveg
geraadpleeg het, wat moeilik aanvaarbaar is. Meintjies doen aan die hand
dat De la Rey moontlik geglo het dat Van Rensburg nie sonder rede in sy lewe
gekom het nie. Vir De la Rey was die Siener die instrument van 'n krag wat
hy herken en gerespekteer het. Deneys Reitz merk op: 'Of General De la
Rey's sincerity there could be no doubt, for he was not a man to stoop to
subterfuge, and I knew that he firmly believed in the seer's predictions.'
In die beoordeeling van De la Rey as veldheer moet sy vreemde verbintenis
met Siener van Rensburg ernstig opgeneem word. Dit verraai 'n element van
naïwiteit in die Boeregeneraal wat hom waarskynlik meer mens maak maar
afbreuk doen aan sy goeie militêre kwaliteite. Dit is in elk geval nie te
rym met die praktiese sin en militêre insig wat hy aan die dag gelê het
nie."
Dis interessant dat Fransjohan Pretorius aan die een kant moeite doen om aan
te toon dat De la Rey diep godsdienstig was en verder Deneys Reitz aanhaal
wat verklaar dat daar geen rede is om De la Rey se opregtheid te
bevraagteken nie, dat hy nie iemand was wat hom met bedrogspeletjies opgehou
het nie en dat hy (Deneys Reitz) daarvoor kan instaan dat De la Rey die
siener se voorspellings vas geglo het, en aan die ander kant terselfdertyd
verklaar dat De la Rey se verhouding en geloof aan die Siener se
voorspellings "afbreuk doen aan sy goeie militêre kwaliteite". Ten spyte
van die getuienis ten gunste van Siener se vermoëns
Die 2e aanhaling verwys na 'n insident die dag voor die beroemde Slag van
Tweebosch toe De la Rey Methuen krysgevange geneem het: "Interessant genoeg
het Siener van Rensburg op dieselfde dag, 6 Maart, 'n visie aan De la Rey
geopenbaar. Hy het 'n woedende rooi bul gesien wat vanuit Vryburg al langs
die Hartsrivier aan die kom was. Op 'n seker tydstip het die horings van
die bul skielik gehang. Net agter die bult by Tweebosch het hy die bul weer
gewaar, maar toe was dit 'n poenskop wat in sy spore omspring en in die
rigting van Lichtenburg die hase pad kies. Daar bestaan ook getuienis dat
De la Rey vir Kmdt. Vermaas vertel het dat hy vasberade was om Methuen te
vang, en dat Siener van Rensburg hom van dié gesig vertel het."
'n Mens bly natuurlik met die vraag sit: Tot watter mate is De la Rey en sy
manne gemotiveer om die "visioene" werklikheid te maak? M.a.w. het die
"visioene" die gebeure "reg voorspel" of die regte aksie gemotiveer?
Laasgenoemde moontlikheid sou egter nie die raak voorspelling oor De la Rey
se dood kon verklaar nie. Ek het nog nie kans gehad om weer
Meintjies te lees nie, maar ek wil my herinner dat Meintjies dit verhaal.
Torreke
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