Tuis » Algemeen » Koeitjies & kalfies » The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!!
 The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22924] |
Sat, 15 May 1999 00:00  |
Eugene Terreblanche
Boodskappe: 9
Geregistreer: April 1999
Karma: 0
|
Junior Lid |
|
|
There was recent speculation in this NG as to the future of the
Afrikaans language. This is quite an interesting matter when one
considers it's history - particulary the evolution over say the
last 100 years.
It's origins I believe are firmly in the Netherlands, and like
many bastardised languages, simply fashions words from available
sources - in particular the English language. What springs to
mind here is the theft of, in particular, the technological words
- like many associated with the computer industry. Almost all of
these have been "Afrikaanered" with the addition of a "ge" or two
at the beginning.
So what of the future you may well ask?
As Afrikaans has clearly lost it's "official" status of the past
- and acquired a stigma associated with Apartheid to boot, it
seems to be destined to the scrap heap, where no doubt it will
continue to gather dust for quite a few years to come.
So many of the Afrikaaners are fleeing the moeder land these days
also and that fragmentation will impinge upon the ability to
spread and indoctrinate the childred, who even in SAfrica will be
subject to a barrage of "foreign" cultures, ideals and languages,
for them to ultimately choose their following.
As Afrikaans is not an international language, English will surge
ahead in the popularity stakes, and ultimately triumph in the
long term.
Squirrel
|
|
|
|
| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22925 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Sat, 15 May 1999 00:00  |
SocketZero
Boodskappe: 9
Geregistreer: May 1999
Karma: 0
|
Junior Lid |
|
|
On 15 May 1999 11:20:11 -0000, squi...@echelon.alias.net (Squirrel) wrote:
> It's origins I believe are firmly in the Netherlands, and like
> many bastardised languages, simply fashions words from available
> sources - in particular the English language.
Ek sou nie graag 'n goeie argument met feite wou vertroebel nie, maar
Squirrel se opinies irriteer my nou al lank genoeg. 'n Afrikaanse
nuusgroep vra na 'n Afrikaanse spreekwoord, en Squirrel veral vra na
een spesifiek: "Opinies is soos poepholle - almal het een".
Aan Squirrel: Afrikaans evolved from a variety of languages, most of
them Germanic. In much the same way, French, Italian and Spanish
evolved from the Romance languages, which in turn traces its heritage
back to the ancient Indo-European language. If you really have an
innate interest in the origins of language, feel free to study Umberto
Eco's "The Search for the Perfect Language". If, as we all suspect,
you are merely trolling to pass the unbearable boredom of your alleged
existence, have a look at:
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=moron
> As Afrikaans has clearly lost it's "official" status of the past
> [...] , it seems to be destined to the scrap heap, where no doubt
> it will continue to gather dust for quite a few years to come.
Well, everyone can't be perfect, as you so rightly remind us. In
linguistic circles Afrikaans is in fact viewed as one of the most
modern languages in the world. Studies in Afrikaans are carried out at
a large number of universities, and not only those teaching in Dutch.
The University of Moscow and the University of Cologne are two that
jump to mind. The streamlined nature of Afrikaans grammar serves as an
example to all modern languages, and is probably the only language
spoken on a large scale with such a structure.
> As Afrikaans is not an international language, English will surge
> ahead in the popularity stakes, and ultimately triumph in the
> long term.
And as they say in the Great Big Scrabble game in the sky: D-U-N-C-E
using five letters for seventeen points. I win. Remember you are as
much entitled your opinions as anyone else, no matter how malformed,
onerous or taunting they are.
s0.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22952 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Sun, 16 May 1999 00:00 |
Key Bored
Boodskappe: 84
Geregistreer: September 1997
Karma: 0
|
Volle Lid |
|
|
On 15 May 1999 11:20:11 -0000, squi...@echelon.alias.net (Squirrel) wrote:
> There was recent speculation in this NG as to the future of the
> Afrikaans language. This is quite an interesting matter when one
> considers it's history - particulary the evolution over say the
> last 100 years.
>
Any language with 6 million mothertongue speakers will be around for
a few years, is my personal guess. I remember a teacher reading a
twelfth-century quatrain to us ("habba alla fogalla nesta, hinase ik
anda thu...") that could be clearly understood as a proto-Afrikaans.
The language hasn't been engineered into existence as a
tool of oppression in the last century, it has grown from very ancient
and deep roots.
> It's origins I believe are firmly in the Netherlands, and like
> many bastardised languages, simply fashions words from available
> sources - in particular the English language.
Streamlined 17-th century sailor's dutch, mixed with Khoisan and Xhosa
vocabulary, French accent and pronunciation, sprinkled with
Malay, Portuguese, Spanish (Basta!) and (okay, I admit) English.
Blessed with the simplest grammar of any language in existence.
> What springs to mind here is the theft of, in particular, the technological words
> - like many associated with the computer industry. Almost all of
> these have been "Afrikaanered" with the addition of a "ge" or two
> at the beginning.
Ah, but some of us would call it "loan words" and not theft. The same
as the Dutch, French, German or Italian would do in a world where new
inventions and concepts have to be accommodated daily.
But I think you'd find that there are normally correct terms of
Germanic origin to use instead of the Anglicised ones, as in
"verwerker" in stead of "prosessor."
But you seem to be the expert, could you give examples, please?
Just because _you_ don't know the proper terms, doesn't mean
it does not exist.
> So what of the future you may well ask?
>
> As Afrikaans has clearly lost it's "official" status of the past
> - and acquired a stigma associated with Apartheid to boot, it
> seems to be destined to the scrap heap, where no doubt it will
> continue to gather dust for quite a few years to come.
As if making a language official ever did anything to help preserve
it. Viz Esperanto, the "official world language"... dead as a dodo.
> So many of the Afrikaaners are fleeing the moeder land these days
> also and that fragmentation will impinge upon the ability to
> spread and indoctrinate the childred, who even in SAfrica will be
> subject to a barrage of "foreign" cultures, ideals and languages,
> for them to ultimately choose their following.
Ah, so speaking the mother tongue equates indoctrination ... ?
> As Afrikaans is not an international language, English will surge
> ahead in the popularity stakes, and ultimately triumph in the
> long term.
Yeah right. I can walk tall in Amsterdam or Surabaya, understanding
the Kase or the Surinamians, and being understood by them.
(My own prediction is that the next world war will be the USA and UK
against the rest, and after the nuclear dust has settled, you'll find
very few English speakers left...)
Opsaal!
(One challenge, Squirrel - translate "Jou ma se e-pos!" )
and try capturing the same depth and strength of emotion...)
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22954 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Sun, 16 May 1999 00:00 |
Willem-Jan Markerink
Boodskappe: 331
Geregistreer: May 1999
Karma: 0
|
Senior Lid |
|
|
In article ,
w.j.ma...@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink) wrote:
> In article ,
> w.j.ma...@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink) wrote:
>> In article ,
>> squi...@echelon.alias.net (Squirrel) wrote:
>>> There was recent speculation in this NG as to the future of the
>>> Afrikaans language. This is quite an interesting matter when one
>>> considers it's history - particulary the evolution over say the
>>> last 100 years.
>>>
>>> It's origins I believe are firmly in the Netherlands, and like
>>> many bastardised languages, simply fashions words from available
>>> sources - in particular the English language.
>>
>> In order of importance, Dutch, Danish and German,
>
> Forgot:
> I think Fries belongs in this riddle too, a Dutch sub-language (not a
> dialect, to me it's almost as hard to read as Danish (while I can
> read/write/speak German even better than English).
>
>> with Indian influences I
>> believe. English influences might be of a much later time in history,
>> perhaps accelerated by modern technology (as in any language).
>
> Mmm....I checked one of my books about SA, it also specifically mention
> influences from the Maleisian (sp?) slave population....not quite the same
> as Indian.
>
>
Oops, last one, I promise: French.
I often wondered which words that might be, never saw one, but then it
struck me that it might be more grammatical, like the double negations (nie
gelooft nie)....only French has a similar structure, unlike
Dutch/German/Danish.
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22958 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Sun, 16 May 1999 00:00 |
Willem-Jan Markerink
Boodskappe: 331
Geregistreer: May 1999
Karma: 0
|
Senior Lid |
|
|
In article ,
squi...@echelon.alias.net (Squirrel) wrote:
> There was recent speculation in this NG as to the future of the
> Afrikaans language. This is quite an interesting matter when one
> considers it's history - particulary the evolution over say the
> last 100 years.
>
> It's origins I believe are firmly in the Netherlands, and like
> many bastardised languages, simply fashions words from available
> sources - in particular the English language.
In order of importance, Dutch, Danish and German, with Indian influences I
believe. English influences might be of a much later time in history,
perhaps accelerated by modern technology (as in any language).
Btw, show me a non-bastardised language, and I will show you its bastard
roots. The only difference with Afrikaans is that it is a relatively modern
language, so the resemblance with its roots are easier to spot, as well as
the differences. The time span between modern European languages and old
Roman & Greek roots is much much larger, so the awareness is much less.
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
|
|
|
|
| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22959 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Sun, 16 May 1999 00:00 |
Willem-Jan Markerink
Boodskappe: 331
Geregistreer: May 1999
Karma: 0
|
Senior Lid |
|
|
In article ,
w.j.ma...@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink) wrote:
> In article ,
> squi...@echelon.alias.net (Squirrel) wrote:
>> There was recent speculation in this NG as to the future of the
>> Afrikaans language. This is quite an interesting matter when one
>> considers it's history - particulary the evolution over say the
>> last 100 years.
>>
>> It's origins I believe are firmly in the Netherlands, and like
>> many bastardised languages, simply fashions words from available
>> sources - in particular the English language.
>
> In order of importance, Dutch, Danish and German,
Forgot:
I think Fries belongs in this riddle too, a Dutch sub-language (not a
dialect, to me it's almost as hard to read as Danish (while I can
read/write/speak German even better than English).
> with Indian influences I
> believe. English influences might be of a much later time in history,
> perhaps accelerated by modern technology (as in any language).
Mmm....I checked one of my books about SA, it also specifically mention
influences from the Maleisian (sp?) slave population....not quite the same
as Indian.
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #22989 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Mon, 17 May 1999 00:00 |
Willem-Jan Markerink
Boodskappe: 331
Geregistreer: May 1999
Karma: 0
|
Senior Lid |
|
|
In article , wrote:
> w.j.ma...@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink) writes:
>
>
>> Oops, last one, I promise: French.
>> I often wondered which words that might be, never saw one, but then it
>> struck me that it might be more grammatical, like the double negations (nie
>> gelooft nie)....only French has a similar structure, unlike
>> Dutch/German/Danish.
>
>
> Nee, jy het dit mis. Die dubbele negatief
> is nie van Frans afkomstig nie. Daar is
> dubbele negatief-strukture in die dialekte
> van suid-holland, wat die bakermat van
> Afrikaans was.
Nooit op gelet, weet ook eigenlijk niet of dat nu nog steeds zo is, ik woon
in het oosten, 5km van de Duitse grens.
> Daar is baie min Franse woorde in
> Afrikaans wat nie ook in Nederlands of
> Engels te vinde is nie. Meestal die
> name van verskillende tipes druiwe, en
> ander vrugte, soos "pampelmoes" (van
> pomme d'amour),
Mmmm....in het Nederlands bestaat wel het woord/produkt pompelmoes....maar
dat lijkt me eerder afkomstig van het Franse 'mousse'....net als het
Nederlandse appelmoes (appelpuree....het dat ook appelmoes in het
Afrikaans?).
> bermot-sersan peer
> (van "cresane") sermeinpeer (St. Germain.)
> Daar is wel volop Franse voorname en vanne
> in Afrikaans.
>
> Weet jy dat ten minste een invloedryke
> persoon die teorie gehad het dat Afrikaans
> van Friese oorsprong was? Dit was Olive
> Schreiner, baie bekende Suid-Afrikaanse
> skryfster in Engels.
Jullie 'y' in plaats van onze 'ij' komt in ieder geval niet voor in het
hedendaagse Nederlands of Duits....dat is typisch Fries (of Scandinavisch,
Deens weet ik niet zeker).
Maar dat kan een paar honderd jaar geleden natuurlijk anders zijn geweest,
oud-Nederlands gebruikt wel weer de 'y'.
Maar ik begrijp dat Olive's theorie weinig aanhang/weerklank vond bij de
taalkundigen?
Trouwens, weet iemand de oorsprong van 'baie'?
Ik kan daar geen enkel taalkundig touw aan vastknopen....8-))
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #23051 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Wed, 19 May 1999 00:00 |
Willem-Jan Markerink
Boodskappe: 331
Geregistreer: May 1999
Karma: 0
|
Senior Lid |
|
|
In article ,
Robbert Zijlstra wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>> Nooit op gelet, weet ook eigenlijk niet of dat nu nog steeds zo is, ik woon
>> in het oosten, 5km van de Duitse grens.
>>
>
> Twenthe of de Achterhoek?
Achterhoek.
Ik kan in Duitsland met hetzelfde dialect uit de voeten als hier....best
grappig, zitten heel weinig verschillen tussen.
>> Trouwens, weet iemand de oorsprong van 'baie'?
>> Ik kan daar geen enkel taalkundig touw aan vastknopen....8-))
>>
>
> "Baie" komt uit het Maleis. Het wordt tegenwoordig zowel inMaleisië (Bahasa
> Malaysia) als in Indonesië (Bahasa Indonesia)
> gebruikt. Ik heb begrepen dat er meer Maleise taalinvloeden zijn
> op het Afrikaans. Vooral woorden van gerechten, bv "Bobotie",
> een Kaaps gerecht, en vruchten bv "Piesang" voor "Banaan".
Namen van voedsel of gerechten zijn voor mij meer logisch, zeker als iets
vergelijkbaars niet bestaat/bestond in de oorspronkelijke taal.
Maar juist bij iets alledaags als 'baie' had ik dat niet verwacht....
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
|
|
|
|
| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #23052 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Wed, 19 May 1999 00:00 |
Willem-Jan Markerink
Boodskappe: 331
Geregistreer: May 1999
Karma: 0
|
Senior Lid |
|
|
In article ,
nos...@please.net (Fook) wrote:
> On Mon, 17 May 1999 17:44:17 GMT, th...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> nos...@please.net (Fook) wrote:
>>
>>> As if making a language official ever did anything to help preserve
>>> it. Viz Esperanto, the "official world language"... dead as a dodo.
>>
>> I believe you have that backwards. Esperanto has never been official
>> anywhere - and indeed had been outlawed in some places. There is an
>> active international community and subculture of Esperanto speakers
>> "alive and well" today.
>>
>
> My sincere apologies... but then, I hadn't heard any Esperanto over
> here where I live yet. How many speakers are there?
>
Never met anyone that I am aware of....and that includes a wide range of
university contacts....maybe because of their technical background (as
opposed to language/law/socio studies), but still....enough candidates who
were overly-active enough to dabble in any kind of weird study/hobby, but
never met one in Esperanto....again, they *might* not have talked about it
to me, but that's exactly the 'formalized' and 'forced contact' association
I have with this language....it isn't natural outside an artificial
surrounding/environment....to the point that perhaps hardly anyone around
them notices it. More artificial cryptology than a social language....8-))
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
|
|
|
|
| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #23053 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Wed, 19 May 1999 00:00 |
Willem-Jan Markerink
Boodskappe: 331
Geregistreer: May 1999
Karma: 0
|
Senior Lid |
|
|
In article ,
nos...@please.net (Fook) wrote:
> On 15 May 1999 11:20:11 -0000, squi...@echelon.alias.net (Squirrel)
> wrote:
>
>> There was recent speculation in this NG as to the future of the
>> Afrikaans language. This is quite an interesting matter when one
>> considers it's history - particulary the evolution over say the
>> last 100 years.
>>
>
> Any language with 6 million mothertongue speakers will be around for
> a few years, is my personal guess. I remember a teacher reading a
> twelfth-century quatrain to us ("habba alla fogalla nesta, hinase ik
> anda thu...") that could be clearly understood as a proto-Afrikaans.
>
> The language hasn't been engineered into existence as a
> tool of oppression in the last century, it has grown from very ancient
> and deep roots.
>
>> It's origins I believe are firmly in the Netherlands, and like
>> many bastardised languages, simply fashions words from available
>> sources - in particular the English language.
>
> Streamlined 17-th century sailor's dutch, mixed with Khoisan and Xhosa
> vocabulary, French accent and pronunciation, sprinkled with
> Malay, Portuguese, Spanish (Basta!) and (okay, I admit) English.
> Blessed with the simplest grammar of any language in existence.
I checked one more Dutch dictionary, and it mentions, in chronological
order, influences by: Hottentots (not sure how that translates to either
English or Afrikaans), Malay and Portugese....later followed by Bantoe and
English. Quite odd listing, as another travel-dictionary mentions French,
but not Portugese (being so close to Mozambique it must of course have had
Portugese influences).
Btw, what also bugs me is why English in SA never got side-tracked as much
as Dutch did....to me it looks like SA-English neither kept its old roots,
nor did it see as much influence by other languages.
> As if making a language official ever did anything to help preserve
> it. Viz Esperanto, the "official world language"... dead as a dodo.
Or try to speak Latin outside the Vatican....8-))
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: The Future of Afrikaans ... Indeed!! [boodskap #23058 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #22924] |
Wed, 19 May 1999 00:00 |
Willem-Jan Markerink
Boodskappe: 331
Geregistreer: May 1999
Karma: 0
|
Senior Lid |
|
|
In article ,
"Shannon" wrote:
>
> Willem-Jan Markerink wrote in message ...
>> In article , wrote:
>>> w.j.ma...@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink) writes:
>>>
>>>
>
>>
>> Trouwens, weet iemand de oorsprong van 'baie'?
>> Ik kan daar geen enkel taalkundig touw aan vastknopen....8-))
>>
>
> Die woord 'baie' kom oorspronklik van Maleis, so ook woorde soos blatjang,
> borrie, baadjie, bredie. Dit word ook genoem leenwoorde omdat dit van ander
> tale geleen is a.g.v. die behoefte aan 'n woord omdat dit nie reeds in
> Afrikaans bestaan het nie.
Aha, weer wat geleerd....:-))
Maar het argument van 'noodzaak/gebrek' vind ik niet zo sterk....waarom kon
het Nederlands van die tijd wel zonder dit woord, en het Afrikaans niet?
Zou het niet zo kunnen zijn dat het korter/makkelijker was dan het
Nederlandse 'heel erg' (zoals 'heel erg bedankt' of 'heel erg lief' ipv
'baie dank' en 'baie lief').
Ik betrap me daar zelf namelijk ook soms op, Engelse of Duitse
uitdrukkingen schieten me sneller te binnen dan Nederlandse, en soms is er
zelfs helemaal geen vertaling die net zo kort en krachtig is.
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Bladsye (2): [1 ] |
  |
Gaan na forum:
[ XML-voer ] [  ]
Tyd nou: Thu Mar 06 22:49:10 UTC 2025
|
Supertaal
Blog
Soek
Hulp
Lede
Registreer
Teken aan
Tuis
