| Ontkenning [boodskap #31379] |
Mon, 05 June 2000 00:00  |
Paul Roberge
Boodskappe: 8
Geregistreer: October 1999
Karma: 0
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Junior Lid |
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Hello,
I am wondering whether the native speakers on this board
would be willing to share their intitutions with me about
the acceptablility of the sentences below. I am
interested specifically in the felicity/acceptability
of the NIE that occurs in the middle field of sentences 1-9.
I am not concerned with whether these sentences would
be considered "good" or "proper" Afrikaans but whether
one might say/hear them in everyday speech.
So, is the first NIE in these sentences acceptable? marginally
acceptable? marginally unacceptable? totally unacceptable?
(Unsure is a perfectly legitimate response, too.)
1. Geen mens het die verligting nie gesien nie.
2. Niemand kom nie van sy plaas nie.
3a. Niemand anders nie het opgedaag nie.
3b. Niemand anders het nie opgedaag nie.
4. Ek het niemand nie gesien nie.
5. Die ou vent was nog nooit nie siek gewees nie.
6. Hy gaan nooit nie skryf nie.
7. Ek sal jou nooit nie vergeet nie.
8. Ons kan dit nerens nie laat repareer nie.
9. Hy wil niks nie eet nie.
Lastly, how about the second NIE in 10?
10. Jy weet mos dat ons nie sommer nie vir jou sal jok nie.
Any comments/opinions would be gratefully appreciated.
By voorbaat baie dankie!
Paul T. Roberge
Professor of Germanic Languages
University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
E-mail: p...@email.unc.edu
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| Re: Ontkenning [boodskap #31380 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #31379] |
Mon, 05 June 2000 00:00  |
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Oorspronklik gepos deur: @home.com
Paul Roberge wrote:
> 1. Geen mens het die verligting nie gesien nie.
Acceptable, within the narrow confines of a very
specific scenario of meaning.
>
>
> 2. Niemand kom nie van sy plaas nie.
Marginally acceptable on grammatical grounds,
marginally since the scenario would be a very
improbable one.
>
>
> 3a. Niemand anders nie het opgedaag nie.
Unacceptable, because of the POSITION of the
"nie" in the sentence.
>
>
> 3b. Niemand anders het nie opgedaag nie.
Acceptable on grammatical grounds.
>
>
> 4. Ek het niemand nie gesien nie.
Marginally acceptable, but a bit of a redundant
scenario.
>
>
> 5. Die ou vent was nog nooit nie siek gewees nie.
Acceptable on grammatical grounds.
>
>
> 6. Hy gaan nooit nie skryf nie.
Acceptable.
>
>
> 7. Ek sal jou nooit nie vergeet nie.
Acceptable on grammatical grounds.
>
>
> 8. Ons kan dit nerens nie laat repareer nie.
Acceptable, but scenario in which this can be
used is totally nonsensical. However.
one could probably hear this in untidy Afrikaans.
in which case the person probably thinks of "nerens
nie" as a unit of meaning, saying it in one breath
and tempted to write it thus: "nerens-nie."
>
>
> 9. Hy wil niks nie eet nie.
Marginally acceptable, on grammatical grounds but
the scenario would be nonsensical.
>
>
> Lastly, how about the second NIE in 10?
>
> 10. Jy weet mos dat ons nie sommer nie vir jou sal jok nie.
Acceptable, within in the confines of a very
specific scenario of meaning.
Gloudina Bouwer
>
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| Re: Ontkenning [boodskap #31381 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #31379] |
Mon, 05 June 2000 00:00 |
Louis Joubert
Boodskappe: 8
Geregistreer: June 2000
Karma: 0
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Junior Lid |
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May I disagree with Dries here. While it is true that the pronouns Niemand,
Nooit and Geen generally form the first part of the double negative, the
usage suggested by your sentences (like Nooit xxx xxx nie xxx nie.)
represent different semantics from Nooit xxx xxx nie. It all depends what
exactly the speaker wants to say.
To debunk that then:
Geen mens het die verligting gesien nie. (Nobody saw the illumination.)
...does not mean:
Geen mens het die verligting NIE gesien nie. (Nobody did NOT see the
illumination.)
Although the latter is slightly cumbersome Afrikaans both are acceptable.
On these grounds most of your sentences are, in my rusty Londoner's opinion,
correct. But I don't see them making their way into common use since their
strict meaning is probably rarely expressed.
To answer your original question then, rating each sentence on a scale of
acceptability:
1. Geen mens het die verligting nie gesien nie.
Marginally acceptable. I would say
Geen mens het nie die verligting gesien nie.
2. Niemand kom nie van sy plaas nie.
Marginally acceptable - I think the verb is incomplete.
Niemand kom nie van sy plaas AF nie.
3a. Niemand anders nie het opgedaag nie.
Unacceptable. One could say
Niemand anders het nie opgedaag nie. (Nobody else did not turn up)
One could also say, with altered meaning:
Niemand anders het opgedaag nie. (Nobody else turned up, with niemand
forming the first part of the double negative as suggested by Dries)
3b. Niemand anders het nie opgedaag nie.
Ah I see you had it already!
4. Ek het niemand nie gesien nie.
This is a grey one. Colloquial usage * might * see this being used as is ,
meaning "I did not see anybody" but strictly this sentence means "I didn't
not see anybody"
5. Die ou vent was nog nooit nie siek gewees nie.
Acceptable when taken to mean "The old guy was never not ill". But you
probably meant "Die ou vent was nog nooit siek gewees nie" - "He was never
ill"
6. Hy gaan nooit nie skryf nie.
Acceptable. But you probably meant "Hy gaan nooit skryf nie."
7. Ek sal jou nooit nie vergeet nie.
Acceptable. But you probably meant "Ek sal jou nooit vergeet nie"
8. Ons kan dit nerens nie laat repareer nie.
Acceptable. But you probably meant "Ons kan dit nêrens laat repareer nie"
(� is on alt-136 using the keypad. Also, repareer strikes me as too much of
a direct translation from English. "Regmaak" is better.)
9. Hy wil niks nie eet nie.
Acceptable. But you probably meant "Hy wil niks eet nie"
10. Jy weet mos dat ons nie sommer nie vir jou sal jok nie.
Acceptable. But you probably meant "Jy weet mos dat ons nie sommer vir jou
sal jok nie"
cheers
Louis Joubert
London
"Dries Venter" skryf in boodskap news:8hh0mh$3jh$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> Hi,
>
> In all the sentences there are too many negatives. You rightly question the
> middle 'nie' in 1-9 and the first 'nie' in 10. The words 'Niemand',
> 'nooit', 'Geen', already form one part of the double negative in Afrikaans.
> Therefore only one 'nie' is needed to complete the double negative. In more
> or less everyday Afrikaans, your sentences would read:
> 1. Geen mens het die verligting gesien nie.
> 2. Niemand kom van sy plaas [af] nie.
> 3. Niemand anders het opgedaag nie.
> 4. Ek het niemand gesien nie.
> 5. Die ou vent was nog nooit siek gewees nie.
> 6. Hy gaan nooit skryf nie.
> 7. Ek sal jou nooit vergeet nie.
> 8. Ons kan dit nerens laat repareer nie.
> 9. Hy wil niks nie eet nie.
> 10. Jy weet mos dat ons nie sommer vir jou sal jok nie.
>
> Regards,
> Dries Venter
>
>
> Paul Roberge wrote in message ...
>> I am wondering whether the native speakers on this board
>> would be willing to share their intitutions with me about
>> the acceptablility of the sentences below. I am
>> interested specifically in the felicity/acceptability
>> of the NIE that occurs in the middle field of sentences 1-9.
>> I am not concerned with whether these sentences would
>> be considered "good" or "proper" Afrikaans but whether
>> one might say/hear them in everyday speech.
>
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| Re: Ontkenning [boodskap #31407 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #31379] |
Tue, 06 June 2000 00:00 |
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Oorspronklik gepos deur: @home.com
Ferdi Greyling wrote:
> The whole thing round "nie" can sound very NIEhilistic at times. But
> there is a lot of NIE jerking around it as well, at times.
Ha, ha, ha.
Minnehaha
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| Re: Ontkenning [boodskap #31408 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #31379] |
Tue, 06 June 2000 00:00 |
ferdinand
Boodskappe: 1462
Geregistreer: September 1997
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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On 5 Jun 2000 16:08:07 GMT, Paul Roberge wrote:
> 1. Geen mens het die verligting nie gesien nie.
OK
>
> 2. Niemand kom nie van sy plaas nie.
OK
>
> 3a. Niemand anders nie het opgedaag nie.
One too many "nie"
>
> 3b. Niemand anders het nie opgedaag nie.
This one'OK
>
> 4. Ek het niemand nie gesien nie.
OK
>
> 5. Die ou vent was nog nooit nie siek gewees nie.
He, he.... Depends on the meaning.
If it is "the old guy was never not ill", if is OK.
If it is "the old guy was never ill" it is wrong.
>
> 6. Hy gaan nooit nie skryf nie.
OK If it is "he will never not write" .
>
> 7. Ek sal jou nooit nie vergeet nie.
OK
>
> 8. Ons kan dit nerens nie laat repareer nie.
OK
>
> 9. Hy wil niks nie eet nie.
OK if it is "he never want's to eat nothing" but wrong if it is "he
does not want to eat anything".
>
> Lastly, how about the second NIE in 10?
>
> 10. Jy weet mos dat ons nie sommer nie vir jou sal jok nie.
Once again OK if it is "you know that we will never not lie to you"
but wrong if it is "you know that we will never lie to you" - then
there is one too many "nie".
The whole thing round "nie" can sound very NIEhilistic at times. But
there is a lot of NIE jerking around it as well, at times.
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| Re: Ontkenning [boodskap #31409 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #31379] |
Tue, 06 June 2000 00:00 |
Lou
Boodskappe: 436
Geregistreer: July 2000
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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@home.com wrote in message ...
> Paul Roberge wrote:
>>
>> 3b. Niemand anders het nie opgedaag nie.
>
> Acceptable on grammatical grounds.
Will however mean "Nobody else did not arrive".
>
>> 6. Hy gaan nooit nie skryf nie.
>
> Acceptable.
>
Will mean "He is never not going to write".
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| Re: Ontkenning [boodskap #31410 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #31379] |
Tue, 06 June 2000 00:00 |
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Oorspronklik gepos deur: @home.com
Lou wrote:
>>
>>> 6. Hy gaan nooit nie skryf nie.
>>
>> Acceptable.
>>
>
> Will mean "He is never not going to write".
No, something else is going on here. There are twoways of translating this
sentence, depending on how
the sentence is phrased.
(1) Hy gaan nooit NIE SKRYF nie (He will never not write)
(2) Hy gaan NOOIT NIE skryf nie (He will never ever write)
Afrikaans, free from grammatical constraints, has the ability to play
around and heap up negatives to create more refined modes of
meaning. One is therefore able to write the following:
"Hy gaan nooit-nie nie skryf nie." (He will never ever not write)
Gloudina
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