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| Afrikaans translation [boodskap #4321] |
Sat, 03 April 2004 15:03  |
Marcelo Bruno
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Hello,
Could you please translate the following Afrikaans texts into
English ?
Please note I'm more interested in the grammar (particularly use of
modals) than in the semantics of the sentences properly.
1) "As die gebiedsbeginsel toegepas was in die Britse eilande, het die
Keltiese variëteite daar stand kon hou. Was die gebiedsbeginsel
toegepas in Frankryk sou die land vandag 'n meertalige staat gewees
het, met Nederlands in die noorde daarvan."
2) "Maar met hierdie berustende woorde het Duitstalige immigrante na
Amerika nog duisende Duitstaliges na Amerika oorgelok - waar hul taal
gekoester was in Duitstalige taaleilande met 'n volledige Duitstalige
kultuurlewe. Indien alle Duitstalige immigrante hul taal sou kon
handhaaf, sou daar teen 1995, ongeveer 61 miljoen sprekers van Duits
gewees het op Amerikaanse bodem (of 23% van die Amerikaanse
bevolking). Die Duitstalige Amerikaner moes net Duits bly praat het en
sy taal sou bly lewe."
3) "In die vorige eeue was in Suid-Afrika vele Nederlandse dialekte
gepraat. Alleen die Oosgrensafrikaner wou gaan ''skryf soos hy
praat''. "
Thank you,
Marcelo G S Bruno
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| Re: Afrikaans translation [boodskap #4322 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #4321] |
Sun, 04 April 2004 02:48  |
bouer
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"Marcelo Bruno" wrote
> Could you please translate the following Afrikaans texts into
> English ?
> Please note I'm more interested in the grammar (particularly use of
> modals) than in the semantics of the sentences properly.
I cannot understand why you say that you are more
interested in the "modals" than in the semantics of
the passages. What do you mean by "modals"? As
far as I am concerned, the modalities in Afrikaans
would not be part of the grammar but be part of
the semantics. What do you mean by "modals"?
> 1) "As die gebiedsbeginsel toegepas was in die Britse eilande, het die
> Keltiese variëteite daar stand kon hou. Was die gebiedsbeginsel
> toegepas in Frankryk sou die land vandag 'n meertalige staat gewees
> het, met Nederlands in die noorde daarvan."
If the principle of group areas was applied in the British
Isles, the Keltic varieties would have been maintained there.
If the principle of group areas was appied in France, the
country would have been a state with multiple languages,
with Dutch in the north.
met hierdie berustende woorde het Duitstalige immigrante na
Amerika nogduisende Duitstaliges na Amerika oorgelok - waar hul taal
> gekoester was in Duitstalige taaleilande met 'n volledige Duitstalige
> kultuurlewe. Indien alle Duitstalige immigrante hul taal sou kon
> handhaaf, sou daar teen 1995, ongeveer 61 miljoen sprekers van Duits
> gewees het op Amerikaanse bodem (of 23% van die Amerikaanse
> bevolking). Die Duitstalige Amerikaner moes net Duits bly praat het en
> sy taal sou bly lewe."
With these comforting words German speaking immigrants
enticed thousands more Germanspeakers to America - where
their language was nurtured in Germanspeaking islands with
a complete Germanspeaking cultural life. In the event that all
Germanspeaking immigrants could maintain their language, there
would have been, by 1995, about 61 million speakers of
German on American soil ( or 23% of the American population.)
The Germanspeaking American would have had to just keep
speaking German and his language would have survived.
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| Re: Afrikaans translation [boodskap #4323 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #4321] |
Sun, 04 April 2004 03:02 |
bouer
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"Marcelo Bruno" wrote
> 3) "In die vorige eeue was in Suid-Afrika vele Nederlandse dialekte
> gepraat. Alleen die Oosgrensafrikaner wou gaan ''skryf soos hy
> praat''. "
In the earlier centuries many Dutch dialects were spoken
in South Africa. Only the Afrikaner on the eastern
frontier wanted to "write ( the language) as it was
spoken."
Could you please tell us who wrote these passages.
I find the last statement, about the Afrikaners on
the eastern frontier being the ONLY ones wanting to
have a written language that was close to the spoken
variety a little far fetched. The very use of the
term "eastern frontier" is open to interpretation. To
use the term "eastern frontier" you immediately
imply a time element. The eastern part of the Cape
was a frontier in the nineteenth century. By the
the twentieth century it is not a "frontier" any more.
Moreover, the people who agitated for the
creation of a language called Afrikaans ( and
who therefore agitated for a language as it was
spoken) were mostly living in the western part
of the Cape and maybe in the Klein Karoo, but
certainly not on the eastern frontier.
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| Re: Afrikaans translation [boodskap #4324 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #4321] |
Sun, 04 April 2004 03:49 |
Steve Hayes
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Junior Lid |
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On 3 Apr 2004 07:03:01 -0800, br...@ece.cmu.edu (Marcelo Bruno) wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Could you please translate the following Afrikaans texts into
> English ?
> Please note I'm more interested in the grammar (particularly use of
> modals) than in the semantics of the sentences properly.
What are modals?
> 1) "As die gebiedsbeginsel toegepas was in die Britse eilande, het die
> Keltiese variëteite daar stand kon hou. Was die gebiedsbeginsel
> toegepas in Frankryk sou die land vandag 'n meertalige staat gewees
> het, met Nederlands in die noorde daarvan."
If the area principle had been applied in the British Isles, the Celtic
valieties could have been preserved. Were the area principle allpied in
France, that country would today have been a multilingual state, with Dutch
spoken in the north.
>
> 2) "Maar met hierdie berustende woorde het Duitstalige immigrante na
> Amerika nog duisende Duitstaliges na Amerika oorgelok - waar hul taal
> gekoester was in Duitstalige taaleilande met 'n volledige Duitstalige
> kultuurlewe. Indien alle Duitstalige immigrante hul taal sou kon
> handhaaf, sou daar teen 1995, ongeveer 61 miljoen sprekers van Duits
> gewees het op Amerikaanse bodem (of 23% van die Amerikaanse
> bevolking). Die Duitstalige Amerikaner moes net Duits bly praat het en
> sy taal sou bly lewe."
Too long....
> 3) "In die vorige eeue was in Suid-Afrika vele Nederlandse dialekte
> gepraat. Alleen die Oosgrensafrikaner wou gaan ''skryf soos hy
> praat''. "
In previous centuries many Dutch dialects were spoken in South Africa. Only
the eastern frontier Afrikaner wanted to "write as he speaks".
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.oocities.org/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
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| Re: Afrikaans translation [boodskap #4325 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #4322] |
Sun, 04 April 2004 13:07 |
Marcelo Bruno
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Geregistreer: March 2004
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Junior Lid |
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First of all, thank you again for your assistance.
"@rogers.com" skryf in boodskap news:...
> "Marcelo Bruno" wrote
>
>> Could you please translate the following Afrikaans texts into
>> English ?
>> Please note I'm more interested in the grammar (particularly use of
>> modals) than in the semantics of the sentences properly.
>
> I cannot understand why you say that you are more
> interested in the "modals" than in the semantics of
> the passages. What do you mean by "modals"? As
> far as I am concerned, the modalities in Afrikaans
> would not be part of the grammar but be part of
> the semantics. What do you mean by "modals"?
I meant I'm more interested in the *syntax* of embedded sentences
containing modal verbs (moet/moes, kan/kon, wil/wou, sal/sou) as well
as other auxiliary verbs (e.g. het) and possibly passive voice.
>
>
>> 1) "As die gebiedsbeginsel toegepas was in die Britse eilande, het die
>> Keltiese variëteite daar stand kon hou. Was die gebiedsbeginsel
>> toegepas in Frankryk sou die land vandag 'n meertalige staat gewees
>> het, met Nederlands in die noorde daarvan."
>
> If the principle of group areas was applied in the British
> Isles, the Keltic varieties would have been maintained there.
> If the principle of group areas was appied in France, the
> country would have been a state with multiple languages,
> with Dutch in the north.
With respect to the first sentence "As die gebiedsbeginsel [...]",
Steve Hayes (see below) translated it as "if [...] had been
applied[...]". Does Afrikaans distinguish between simple past and past
perfect or is the distinction always implied only in context ?
Incidentally, what would be the Afrikaans equivalents of "is applied"
(present) and "was applied" (past)?
Reading several Afrikaans texts, I was confused by the use of "is + p.
participle" even though the events described therein take place in the
past. For example, from Joe Seremane's biography in the DA site:
"Hy is ook van 1963 tot 1969 op Robbeneiland gevange gehou voordat hy
na die destydse tuisland Bophuthatswana "gedeporteer" is. Hy is weer
van 1976 tot 1978 sonder verhoor aangehou, en verskeie kere tussen
1982 en 1984."
>
> met hierdie berustende woorde het Duitstalige immigrante na
> Amerika nogduisende Duitstaliges na Amerika oorgelok - waar hul taal
>> gekoester was in Duitstalige taaleilande met 'n volledige Duitstalige
>> kultuurlewe. Indien alle Duitstalige immigrante hul taal sou kon
>> handhaaf, sou daar teen 1995, ongeveer 61 miljoen sprekers van Duits
>> gewees het op Amerikaanse bodem (of 23% van die Amerikaanse
>> bevolking). Die Duitstalige Amerikaner moes net Duits bly praat het en
>> sy taal sou bly lewe."
>
> With these comforting words German speaking immigrants
> enticed thousands more Germanspeakers to America - where
> their language was nurtured in Germanspeaking islands with
> a complete Germanspeaking cultural life. In the event that all
> Germanspeaking immigrants could maintain their language, there
> would have been, by 1995, about 61 million speakers of
> German on American soil ( or 23% of the American population.)
> The Germanspeaking American would have had to just keep
> speaking German and his language would have survived.
Could you translate "Indien alle Duitstalige immigrante hul taal sou
kon
handhaaf" as "in the event that all German-speaking immigrants could
have maintained their language" ? Is there any formal distinction in
Afrikaans between "could maintain" and "could have maintained" ? I was
also struck by the construction "moes Duits bly praat het" which
appears to me to be uniquely Afrikaans (when compared for example to
equivalent sentences in Dutch and German).
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| Re: Afrikaans translation [boodskap #4326 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #4323] |
Sun, 04 April 2004 14:03 |
Marcelo Bruno
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"@rogers.com" skryf in boodskap news:...
>
> Could you please tell us who wrote these passages.
>
Those passages are from the site
http://www.afrikaans.nu/pag2.htm. Apparently, from what I could
understand, the author seems to advocate that Afrikaners should return
to standard Dutch as their language of culture since that would, in
his opinion, make it easier for them to resist linguistic assimilation
(read "anglicization") in post-apartheid South Africa.
Please note that I am by no means endorsing any of the views expressed
by the author. I'm interested solely in the linguistic aspects of the
text. Sticking to the subject though, I see an interesting contrast
between South Africa and my own country, Brazil, in terms of
historical attitudes towards language standardization. Maybe you don't
know, but the position of the Portuguese language in colonial Brazil
was actually quite precarious. Not unlike in South Africa, there was a
small minority of European (Portuguese) settlers living together with
a majority of transplanted African slaves and native Indians or people
of mixed Indian/European/African ancestry. The slaves probably spoke
at best creolized forms of Portuguese whereas, in the interior (away
from the Atlantic coast), a Tupian-based koine was the dominant
language.
Interestingly though, while in South Africa the Napoleonic wars cut
off the Cape Colony from Holland, they had the opposite effect in
Brazil: the Portuguese royal family itself was forced to flee from the
French invasion and, persuaded by the British, moved with the entire
Portuguese court to Rio de Janeiro, which suddenly became for a while
the new capital of the Portuguese empire. The arrival of the royal
family in Rio meant not only a large new influx of Portuguese speakers
into the colony, but also meant that, for the first time in Brazil,
Portuguese-language newspapers and books would be printed, and
Portuguese-language institutions of higher learning (for example
engineering, medical and law schools) would be opened, thus allowing a
Luso-Brazilian "high culture" to emerge. After "independence"
(promoted actually by a dissident faction of the royal family who
chose to stay in Brazil), the consolidation of Portuguese as the
national language would be reinforced by the fresh arrival of some 1.4
million new immigrants from Portugal who were part of a larger
European immigration drive that, later in the 19th century and early
20th century, also included significant numbers of Italians and
Spaniards (both quickly assimilated into the lusophone majorities) and
other smaller groups (e.g. Germans and Poles) that resisted language
assimilation first, but eventually became lusophone as a result of
compulsory public education in Portuguese.
In the end, by the early 20th century, Portuguese was firmly
established as the national language. There were however at that time,
as there still are today, significant differences between the written
language (based on the European standard) and spoken Brazilian
Portuguese. Within the spoken language itself, there were/are
additional variations ranging from the educated familiar language
(also substandard, but closer to the standard) and the popular
language which, not unlike perhaps early Afrikaans, shows large
deviations from conventional grammar. The point however is that,
except for a few vanguard writers of the early 20th century, the
Brazilian socio-economic elite never embraced the idea of
standardizing the popular language and promoting it to the status of
official national language. Instead, they chose to stick with standard
written Portuguese although that language is, strictly speaking, not
used by a vast section of the Brazilian population. In theory, leaving
important historical differences aside, I believe a "Brazilian"
language could have conceivably emerged, as Afrikaans did in SA, if
the Brazilian white elite's attitude towards language standardization
had been different.
Best regards,
Marcelo G S Bruno
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| Re: Afrikaans translation [boodskap #4327 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #4325] |
Sun, 04 April 2004 14:17 |
bouer
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"Marcelo Bruno" wrote .
> I meant I'm more interested in the *syntax* of embedded sentences
> containing modal verbs (moet/moes, kan/kon, wil/wou, sal/sou) as well
> as other auxiliary verbs (e.g. het) and possibly passive voice.
OK. When we say in Afrikaans "modale woorde" we very
often talk of words like "mos" and "darem" which strictly
have nothing to do with grammar. I see that you are
interested
in "modal verbs." It remains to be seen how often
moet/moes,
kan/kon etc. are not simply a distinction between present
and past. But I must concede that increasingly in
Afrikaans
strict "correct " past tense constructions are abandoned
with
abandon in favour of anything that expresses the speaker's
attempt to find and exact modality of meaning rather than
following the rules of correct grammar.
Does Afrikaans distinguish between simple past and past
> perfect or is the distinction always implied only in context ?
No, very often the past tense is indicated by
starting the sentence with " toe" and then using
what looks like the present tense of the verb
afterwards. "Toe ek dit sien, het ek geskrik".
> Incidentally, what would be the Afrikaans equivalents of "is applied"
> (present) and "was applied" (past)?
Dit is toegepas / dit was toegepas. I think that
we will here have to make a subtle distinction
in meaning. "Dit is toegepas" would mean that
it was applied in the past and remains so after-
wards. "Dit was toegepas" would imply that
it was applied in the past but that it is not so
any more. In both cases I would consider it
as examples of past tense.
> Reading several Afrikaans texts, I was confused by the use of "is + p.
> participle" even though the events described therein take place in the
> past. Hy is weer
> van 1976 tot 1978 sonder verhoor aangehou
As far as I can see, "is" followed by the past
participle is always past tense. As indicated
above, that usually means just the basic past
perfect. If however, the speaker decides to
use "was" instead of "is" he simply wants to
make it more past (!) or he might want to
indicate that the situation has now changed.
> Could you translate "Indien alle Duitstalige immigrante hul taal sou
> kon
> handhaaf" as "in the event that all German-speaking immigrants could
> have maintained their language" ? Is there any formal distinction in
> Afrikaans between "could maintain" and "could have maintained" ?
Yes. I think you would not be wrong to translate
the above sentence in that way. One would
therefore have to ask yourself what would be
the distinction between "sou kon handhaaf"
( which is obviously past tense) and "sou
kon gehandhaaf het." In my opinion the latter
construction adds a subtle difference in meaning,
again an attempt to indicate that it is more in
the past than the first construction. With this
caveat. The construction "sou kon handhaaf"
would be seen as bookish and academic in
the eyes of the man in the street, and he would
probably opt for the latter construction because
it sounds more "common" to him.
I was
> also struck by the construction "moes Duits bly praat het" which
> appears to me to be uniquely Afrikaans (when compared for example to
> equivalent sentences in Dutch and German).
What is uniquely Afrikaans there? The "bly praat"
part? Ek bly praat/ Ek het bly praat/ Ek sal bly
praat.
Ek bly lê/ Ek het bly lê/ Ek sal bly lê/ Ek sou bly lê/
Ek wou bly lê/ Ek sou kon bly lê. Ek sou kon gebly
lê het.
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| Re: Afrikaans translation [boodskap #4328 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #4326] |
Sun, 04 April 2004 14:33 |
bouer
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"Marcelo Bruno" wrote
>> Brazilian socio-economic elite never embraced the idea of
> standardizing the popular language and promoting it to the status of
> official national language. Instead, they chose to stick with standard
> written Portuguese although that language is, strictly speaking, not
> used by a vast section of the Brazilian population. In theory, leaving
> important historical differences aside, I believe a "Brazilian"
> language could have conceivably emerged, as Afrikaans did in SA, if
> the Brazilian white elite's attitude towards language standardization
> had been different.
Thank you very much for the most interesting
explanation of what happened in Brazil. Here
in Canada something similar happened also.
The French colonists that lived in the maritime
regions of eastern Canada talked a language
that had its antecedents in 17th century France
and was therefore significantly different from
the speakers of socalled modern French. The
latter French speakers look down on the
French spoken by the Acadians. Even although
it has now been proved that Acadian French
has a much richer vocabulary than modern
French, because in the seventeenth century
the people coming from the various regions
of France brought their own provincial
expressions with them and so enriched the
Acadian language ( while modern French is
probably just the language spoken in the
Paris region). I guess the same would have
happened in Brazil. And the same certainly
happened in South Africa. Only in South
Africa we were lucky enough to have it
declared a separate language.
Gloudina Bouwer
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| Re: Afrikaans translation [boodskap #4330 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #4321] |
Sun, 04 April 2004 21:04 |
Alex
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"Marcelo Bruno" skryf in boodskap news:5f709a92.0404030703.40ae6029@posting.google.com...
> Hello,
>
> Could you please translate the following Afrikaans texts into
> English ?
> Please note I'm more interested in the grammar (particularly use of
> modals) than in the semantics of the sentences properly.
>
> 1) "As die gebiedsbeginsel toegepas was in die Britse eilande, het die
> Keltiese variëteite daar stand kon hou. Was die gebiedsbeginsel
> toegepas in Frankryk sou die land vandag 'n meertalige staat gewees
> het, met Nederlands in die noorde daarvan."
Translation (a semantic rather than a literal one): a bunch of Afrikaner
yokels haven't figured out yet that they're no longer getting to carve up
South Africa any way they fancy.
> 2) "Maar met hierdie berustende woorde het Duitstalige immigrante na
> Amerika nog duisende Duitstaliges na Amerika oorgelok - waar hul taal
> gekoester was in Duitstalige taaleilande met 'n volledige Duitstalige
> kultuurlewe. Indien alle Duitstalige immigrante hul taal sou kon
> handhaaf, sou daar teen 1995, ongeveer 61 miljoen sprekers van Duits
> gewees het op Amerikaanse bodem (of 23% van die Amerikaanse
> bevolking). Die Duitstalige Amerikaner moes net Duits bly praat het en
> sy taal sou bly lewe."
Translation: blarney about German Americans not hanging on to
"their" language.
> 3) "In die vorige eeue was in Suid-Afrika vele Nederlandse dialekte
> gepraat. Alleen die Oosgrensafrikaner wou gaan ''skryf soos hy
> praat''. "
Only eastern border Afrikaners "write like they talk".
Alex
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| Re: Afrikaans translation [boodskap #4331 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #4330] |
Tue, 06 April 2004 18:10 |
conciliator
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Junior Lid |
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"Alex" skryf in boodskap news:407078ab$0$93584$cd19a363@news.wanadoo.nl...
> "Marcelo Bruno" schreef in bericht
> news:5f709a92.0404030703.40ae6029@posting.google.com...
>> Hello,
>>
>> Could you please translate the following Afrikaans texts into
>> English ?
>> Please note I'm more interested in the grammar (particularly use of
>> modals) than in the semantics of the sentences properly.
>>
>> 1) "As die gebiedsbeginsel toegepas was in die Britse eilande, het die
>> Keltiese variëteite daar stand kon hou. Was die gebiedsbeginsel
>> toegepas in Frankryk sou die land vandag 'n meertalige staat gewees
>> het, met Nederlands in die noorde daarvan."
>
> Translation (a semantic rather than a literal one): a bunch of Afrikaner
> yokels haven't figured out yet that they're no longer getting to carve up
> South Africa any way they fancy.
>
Another "intelligent" contribution by our Alex!
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| Re: Afrikaans translation [boodskap #4332 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #4327] |
Sat, 10 April 2004 15:48 |
Marcelo Bruno
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"@rogers.com" skryf in boodskap news:...
> "Marcelo Bruno" wrote .
>
>
>> Reading several Afrikaans texts, I was confused by the use of "is + p.
>> participle" even though the events described therein take place in the
>> past. Hy is weer
>> van 1976 tot 1978 sonder verhoor aangehou
>
> As far as I can see, "is" followed by the past
> participle is always past tense. As indicated
> above, that usually means just the basic past
> perfect. If however, the speaker decides to
> use "was" instead of "is" he simply wants to
> make it more past (!) or he might want to
> indicate that the situation has now changed.
>
From what I understood from the author's use of "was toegepas", it
would appear to me that the distiction is somewhat more clearly
defined. Specifically, it seems that
Afr. word gemaak = Eng. is made
Afr. is gemaak = Eng. was made, OR Eng. has been made
Afr. was gemaak = Eng. had been made (cf. Dutch "was gemaakt",
Ger "war gemacht worden").
If the above is accurate, Afrikaans pretty much follows standard
Dutch as far as passive voice is concerned, with the only exception
that, in Dutch, there is still a distinction between "werde gemaakt"
(Eng "was made" cf. German "wurde gemacht") and "is gemaakt" (Eng.
"has been made", cf. German "ist gemacht worden").
>
> I was
>> also struck by the construction "moes Duits bly praat het" which
>> appears to me to be uniquely Afrikaans (when compared for example to
>> equivalent sentences in Dutch and German).
>
> What is uniquely Afrikaans there?
The "bly praat"
> part? Ek bly praat/ Ek het bly praat/ Ek sal bly
> praat.
> Ek bly lê/ Ek het bly lê/ Ek sal bly lê/ Ek sou bly lê/
> Ek wou bly lê/ Ek sou kon bly lê. Ek sou kon gebly
> lê het.
Let's see if I got it right:
Ek bly lê = I keep reading
Ek sal bly lê = I will keep reading
Ek sou bly lê = I would keep reading (??)
Ek wil bly lê = I want to keep reading
Ek wou bly lê = I wanted to keep reading
Ek kan bly lê = I can (am able to) keep reading.
Ek kon bly lê = I could (was able to) keep reading (??)
Ek sou kon bly lê = I could have kept reading (??)
Ek sou kon gebly lê het = same as above (less formal) (??)
Ek moet bly lê = I must (have to) keep reading
Ek moes bly lê = I had to keep reading (??)
Ek moes bly lê het = I would have had to keep reading (??)
I didn't quite get though the meaning of "Ek het bly lê" . Does it
mean "I kept reading" ? Why wouldn't you say instead "Ek het lê gebly"
? If you allow me one additional question, how would you say in
Afrikaans "I should keep reading" and "I should have kept reading" ?
Thanks again for the useful information you have provided me with,
Marcelo G S Bruno
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| Re: Afrikaans translation [boodskap #4333 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #4332] |
Sat, 10 April 2004 18:34 |
bouer
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"Marcelo Bruno" wrote
No, you got the meaning of the word wrong, for a start.
"Lê" is to "lie" on a bed or something, or to lie down.
I will try to translate the rest, but don't take only my
word for it.
> Ek bly lê = I keep on lying down. I continue to lie down.
> Ek sal bly lê = I will continue to lie down.
> Ek sou bly lê = I would have lain (?)
> Ek wil bly lê = I want to continue lying down
> Ek wou bly lê = I wanted to continue lying down
> Ek kan bly lê = I can (am able to) continue lying down
> Ek kon bly lê = I could (was able to) continue lying down
> Ek sou kon bly lê = I could have continued lying down
> Ek sou kon gebly lê het = same as above (less formal) Probably, but it could also have a different colour.
> Ek moet bly lê = I must (have to) keep lying down
> Ek moes bly lê = I should continue lying down/ I was forced to.....
> Ek moes bly lê het = I should have continued lying down
>
> I didn't quite get though the meaning of "Ek het bly lê" . Does it
> mean "I kept reading" ? Why wouldn't you say instead "Ek het lê gebly"
"I continued lying down" is the meaning of "ek het
bly lê."
To answer the last part of the question, you must
see that
the verb is "bly lê." The past tense will therefore
have to
be " Ek het bly lê/ Ek het gebly lê."
> ? If you allow me one additional question, how would you say in
> Afrikaans "I should keep reading" and "I should have kept reading" ?
lees= read
Ek moet bly lees (intransitive)
Ek moes bly lees het. Although a less learned response
could be "ek moes gebly lees het" and although it is
probably not good grammar, it feels more comfortable
in the common language.
Gloudina
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| Re: Afrikaans translation [boodskap #91984 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #4327] |
Sun, 04 April 2004 14:35 |
Ellie
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"@rogers.com" wrote in message
news:CNUbc.23610$RfJ.8137@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.roger s.com...
>
> "Marcelo Bruno" wrote .
>
>> I meant I'm more interested in the *syntax* of embedded sentences
>> containing modal verbs (moet/moes, kan/kon, wil/wou, sal/sou) as well
>> as other auxiliary verbs (e.g. het) and possibly passive voice.
>
> OK. When we say in Afrikaans "modale woorde" we very
> often talk of words like "mos" and "darem" which strictly
> have nothing to do with grammar. I see that you are
> interested
> in "modal verbs." It remains to be seen how often
> moet/moes,
> kan/kon etc. are not simply a distinction between present
> and past. But I must concede that increasingly in
> Afrikaans
> strict "correct " past tense constructions are abandoned
> with
> abandon in favour of anything that expresses the speaker's
> attempt to find and exact modality of meaning rather than
> following the rules of correct grammar.
>
> Does Afrikaans distinguish between simple past and past
>> perfect or is the distinction always implied only in context ?
>
> No, very often the past tense is indicated by
> starting the sentence with " toe" and then using
> what looks like the present tense of the verb
> afterwards. "Toe ek dit sien, het ek geskrik".
>
>> Incidentally, what would be the Afrikaans equivalents of "is applied"
>> (present) and "was applied" (past)?
>
> Dit is toegepas / dit was toegepas. I think that
> we will here have to make a subtle distinction
> in meaning. "Dit is toegepas" would mean that
> it was applied in the past and remains so after-
> wards. "Dit was toegepas" would imply that
> it was applied in the past but that it is not so
> any more. In both cases I would consider it
> as examples of past tense.
>
>
>> Reading several Afrikaans texts, I was confused by the use of "is + p.
>> participle" even though the events described therein take place in the
>> past. Hy is weer
>> van 1976 tot 1978 sonder verhoor aangehou
>
> As far as I can see, "is" followed by the past
> participle is always past tense. As indicated
> above, that usually means just the basic past
> perfect. If however, the speaker decides to
> use "was" instead of "is" he simply wants to
> make it more past (!) or he might want to
> indicate that the situation has now changed.
>
>
>> Could you translate "Indien alle Duitstalige immigrante hul taal sou
>> kon
>> handhaaf" as "in the event that all German-speaking immigrants could
>> have maintained their language" ? Is there any formal distinction in
>> Afrikaans between "could maintain" and "could have maintained" ?
>
> Yes. I think you would not be wrong to translate
> the above sentence in that way. One would
> therefore have to ask yourself what would be
> the distinction between "sou kon handhaaf"
> ( which is obviously past tense) and "sou
> kon gehandhaaf het." In my opinion the latter
> construction adds a subtle difference in meaning,
> again an attempt to indicate that it is more in
> the past than the first construction. With this
> caveat. The construction "sou kon handhaaf"
> would be seen as bookish and academic in
> the eyes of the man in the street, and he would
> probably opt for the latter construction because
> it sounds more "common" to him.
>
>
> I was
>> also struck by the construction "moes Duits bly praat het" which
>> appears to me to be uniquely Afrikaans (when compared for example to
>> equivalent sentences in Dutch and German).
>
> What is uniquely Afrikaans there? The "bly praat"
> part? Ek bly praat/ Ek het bly praat/ Ek sal bly
> praat.
> Ek bly lê/ Ek het bly lê/ Ek sal bly lê/ Ek sou bly lê/
> Ek wou bly lê/ Ek sou kon bly lê. Ek sou kon gebly
> lê het.
>
So gepraat van Afrikaans, ek sit nou die dag in my kantoor en praat
Afrikaans oor die
telefoon met n vriendin, en na die tyd kom een van my kollegas wat my gehoor
het en
se vir my dat Afrikaans nie vir haar klink na n mooi taal , sy se dit
is hard op die oor. Ek het ook onlangs met drie verskillende uitgewers in
Afr. moes praat
vir besigheid, en het maar later oorgeswaai na Engels, want ek vind dat ek
glad
nie besigheid in Afrikaans kan praat nie, my woordeskat daarvoor is net
eenvoudig
te gebrekkig. Jammer nogal . . .
Ellie
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| Re: Afrikaans translation [boodskap #91985 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #91984] |
Sun, 04 April 2004 15:38 |
bouer
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"Ellie" skryf
> So gepraat van Afrikaans, ek sit nou die dag in my kantoor en praat
> Afrikaans oor die > telefoon met n vriendin, en na die tyd kom een van my
kollegas wat my gehoor > het en > se vir my dat Afrikaans nie vir haar
klink
na n mooi taal , sy se dit > is hard op die oor.
Sy is natuurlik taamlik onbeskof as sy so
praat. Ek wonder of sy dink dat Nederlands
of Duits enigsins minder hard is op die oor,
asook menigte ander tale. Ek vind dat
'n sekere soort Amerikaner altyd probeer
om iets te sê wat hulle in 'n posisie van mag
stel, en jou in die minderwaardige posisie.
Anders as in die Engelse kultuursfeer, waar
daar 'n ingeboude kultuurmanier is om jou
op te hemel en die spreker laer te stel. Ek
het besluit dat hierdie "Amerikaanse" manier
sy oorsprong het in die Middel-Europese
mentaliteit, want hier in Kanada kry mens
dit gewoonlik by mense wat oorspronklik
uit sentraal- en oos-Europa kom. Hulle
begin vir jou dadelik vertel van hulle ryk
familie, en hoe slim hulle niggies is, ensovoorts,
ensovoorts. Dis ook 'n Joodse gewoonte,
maar ek dink die Jode het dit ook in Oos-
Europa opgetel.
Gloudina
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| Re: Afrikaans translation [boodskap #91986 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #91985] |
Sun, 04 April 2004 16:00 |
Ellie
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"@rogers.com" wrote in message
news:sZVbc.23992$RfJ.7139@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.roger s.com...
>
> "Ellie" skryf
>
>> So gepraat van Afrikaans, ek sit nou die dag in my kantoor en praat
>> Afrikaans oor die > telefoon met n vriendin, en na die tyd kom een van
my
> kollegas wat my gehoor > het en > se vir my dat Afrikaans nie vir haar
> klink
> na n mooi taal , sy se dit > is hard op die oor.
>
> Sy is natuurlik taamlik onbeskof as sy so
> praat. Ek wonder of sy dink dat Nederlands
> of Duits enigsins minder hard is op die oor,
> asook menigte ander tale. Ek vind dat
> 'n sekere soort Amerikaner altyd probeer
> om iets te sê wat hulle in 'n posisie van mag
> stel, en jou in die minderwaardige posisie.
> Anders as in die Engelse kultuursfeer, waar
> daar 'n ingeboude kultuurmanier is om jou
> op te hemel en die spreker laer te stel. Ek
> het besluit dat hierdie "Amerikaanse" manier
> sy oorsprong het in die Middel-Europese
> mentaliteit, want hier in Kanada kry mens
> dit gewoonlik by mense wat oorspronklik
> uit sentraal- en oos-Europa kom. Hulle
> begin vir jou dadelik vertel van hulle ryk
> familie, en hoe slim hulle niggies is, ensovoorts,
> ensovoorts. Dis ook 'n Joodse gewoonte,
> maar ek dink die Jode het dit ook in Oos-
> Europa opgetel.
>
> Gloudina
Die vrou wat dit my vertel het is hoogs intelligent, maar
kom uit n baie disfunksionele familie, hulle woon daar iewers in Georgia se
platteland naby die kus, en naby een of ander belagrike 'swamp'. Sy vertel
graag oor hoe agterlik haar familie is, kompleet met die cousin wat moes
trou toe sy 15 was en van die oupa wat n swart common law wife had.
Eintlik n baie nice mens, ek dink ook nie sy het probeer om Afr. spesifiek
af te kraak nie, sy is net baie uitgesproke. Ek twyfel of sy al ooit Duits
of Nederland of enige ander taal behalwe Spaans gehoor het.
Ellie
Ek dink sy wou seker maar die
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