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| Comparative Afrikaans / Dutch / Low Saxon translation [boodskap #114219] |
Wo, 11 Julie 2007 15:27  |
umfo...
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Junior Lid |
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Hierdie kant van die waarheid...
Here is the first stanza of Dylan Thomas's poem This Side of the
Truth, followed by my translation into the Southwest Drents variant of
Low Saxon (the native tongue on my mother's side of the family). Low
Saxon is a collection of non-standardised dialects spoken in the
Northeastern Netherlands and Northern Germany. The dialects on both
sides of the border, which have traditionally formed a continuum, have
been heavily influenced by the respective national standard language,
and over the course of the twentieth century have witnessed a sharp
decline in fluent speakers.
This translation is in turn followed, for purposes of comparison, by a
literal translation of the Low Saxon into Dutch, and my attempt -
quite possibly flawed - at a literal translation of the Low Saxon into
Afrikaans. Note that Afrikaans finds its origin in the Western Dutch
(Hollandic, Zeelandic) dialects, not in the Eastern Dutch dialects
which include the Low Saxon ones. Low Saxon developed independently
from Dutch and (High) German, and had political clout in the days of
the Hanseatic League, after which its marginalisation began.
What is your impression of these comparisons? Can the Afrikaans be
improved? E.g., I don't think "in de benen komen" (get up on one's
feet) translates literally into Afrikaans; what would be the closest
rendering?
English
This side of the truth,
You may not see, my son,
King of your blue eyes
In the blinding country of youth,
That all is undone,
Under the unminding skies,
Of innocence and guilt
Before you move to make
One gesture of the heart or head,
Is gathered and spilt
Into the winding dark
Like the dust of the dead.
Low Saxon (Southwest Drents)
Dizze kaante van de waorheid
Zuj miskien niet zien, mien zeun,
Keuning van oen blauwe ogen
Ien 't blinde laand van de kiender:
Det alle dinger ofleupt,
Al blif de hemel onbewogen,
Onskuld en skuld gaot verleuren
Veurdej ok mar mit ien gebaor
Van heufd of harte ien de bienen koomt
Wördt alles vört ehaald en, as 't stof
Van de doden, ien 't dreiende duuster
Egeuten op de leste aobend.
Dutch
Deze kant van de waarheid
Zul je misschien niet zien, mijn zoon,
Koning van je blauwe ogen
In het blinde land van de kinderen:
Dat alle dingen aflopen,
Al blijft de hemel onbewogen,
Onschuld en schuld gaan verloren
Voordat je ook maar met één gebaar
Van hoofd of hart in de benen komt
Wordt alles weggehaald en, als het stof
Van de doden, in het draaiende duister
Gegoten op de laatste avond.
Afrikaans
Hierdie kant van die waarheid
Sal jy miskien nie sien nie, my seun,
Koning van jou bloue oë
In die blinde land van die kindere:
Dat al die dinge eindig,
Al bly die hemel onbewoë,
Onskuld en skuld gaan verlore
Voordat jy net een gebaar
Van kop of hart kan maak
Word alles weggehaal en, as die stof
Van die dode, gegiet in die draaiende
Duister op die laaste aand.
This message was originally posted by the author on his Facebook page.
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| Re: Comparative Afrikaans / Dutch / Low Saxon translation [boodskap #114220 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #114219] |
Wo, 11 Julie 2007 16:52  |
Nou....@gmail.com
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Senior Lid |
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On Jul 11, 5:27 pm, umfo...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hierdie kant van die waarheid...
> What is your impression of these comparisons? Can the Afrikaans be
> improved?
I've tried my hand at another Afrikaans version, below:
>
> Hierdie kant van die waarheid
> Sal jy miskien nie sien nie, my seun,
> Koning van jou bloue oë
> In die blinde land van die kindere:
> Dat al die dinge eindig,
> Al bly die hemel onbewoë,
> Onskuld en skuld gaan verlore
> Voordat jy net een gebaar
> Van kop of hart kan maak
> Word alles weggehaal en, as die stof
> Van die dode, gegiet in die draaiende
> Duister op die laaste aand.
Hier's my weergawe:
----
Hierdie kant van die waarheid
mag jy dalk nie sien nie, my seun
Koning van jou blou oë
in die verblindende land van die jeug
Dat alles ongedaan is
onder die onbetrokke hemele
van onskuld en en skuld
Voor jy nog kan wik of maak
'n gebaar van hoof of hart
Word alles weggehaal en
bymekaargemaak, verstrooi
in die wentelende duister
soos die stof van dooies
--
Nou Prajy.
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| Re: Comparative Afrikaans / Dutch / Low Saxon translation [boodskap #114221 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #114220] |
Do, 12 Julie 2007 10:21 |
umfo...
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Geregistreer: Julie 2007
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Junior Lid |
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> Hier's my weergawe:
> ----
>
> Hierdie kant van die waarheid
> mag jy dalk nie sien nie, my seun
> Koning van jou blou oë
> in die verblindende land van die jeug
> Dat alles ongedaan is
> onder die onbetrokke hemele
> van onskuld en en skuld
> Voor jy nog kan wik of maak
> 'n gebaar van hoof of hart
> Word alles weggehaal en
> bymekaargemaak, verstrooi
> in die wentelende duister
> soos die stof van dooies
The more times I read your version, the better I like it. Thanks also
for the implicit corrections.
One thing: "This side of the truth, / You may not see, my son" you
render as "Hierdie kant van die waarheid / mag jy dalk nie sien nie,
my seun". I understand that "mag" here indicates possibility, rather
than (a lack of) permission? I.e., "perhaps you cannot see this side
of the truth", rather than "you had better not see this side of the
truth".
In Dutch, by contrast, "mogen" normally refers to permission. "Dat mag
je niet zien" - "You aren't allowed to see that." Whereas "Maybe you
can't see that" would be "Dat kun je misschien niet zien." In any
case, this issue gets me thinking about whether "You may not see, my
son" indicates that the son is likely not to perceive the awaiting
oblivion, or perhaps that the writer thinks it best that the son is
not (yet) told that all things will perish. Even though there is
solace in all things perishing because evil will "die in unjudging
love".
Below are the two remaining stanzas of Thomas's poem, followed by my
Afrikaans translation. Improvements are welcome, as is any type of
commentary!
Good and bad, two ways
Of moving about your death
By the grinding sea,
King of your heart in the blind days,
Blow away like breath,
Go crying through you and me
And the souls of all men
Into the innocent
Dark, and the guilty dark, and good
Death, and bad death, and then
In the last element
Fly like the stars' blood
Like the sun's tears,
Like the moon's seed, rubbish
And fire, the flying rant
Of the sky, king of your six years.
And the wicked wish,
Down the beginning of plants
And animals and birds,
Water and Light, the earth and sky,
Is cast before you move,
And all your deeds and words,
Each truth, each lie,
Die in unjudging love.
Goed en sleg, twee wyses
Om dood toe oor die pad te loop
Na die malende see,
Koning van jou hart in die blinde dae,
Waai weg soos 'n asemstoot,
Gaan skreeuend deur jou en deur my
En die siele van almal
En kom in die onskuldige
Donker, en die skuldige donker, en goede
Dood, en slegte dood, en dan
In die laaste element,
Vlieg hulle soos sterrebloed,
Soos trane van die son,
Soos saadjies van die maan, afval
En vuur, die vlieënde gekrys
Van die hemel, koning van jou zes jaar,
En die kwaaie wens,
Wat kom van die eerste plante
En diere en voeëls,
Water en Lig, die aarde en die hemel,
Is verwerp voor jy dit selfs kan sien
En al jou dade en woorde,
Elke waarheid, elke leuen
Sterf in liefde wat nie oordeel nie.
Signed,
Umfol...
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| Re: Comparative Afrikaans / Dutch / Low Saxon translation [boodskap #114224 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #114221] |
Vr, 13 Julie 2007 22:21 |
Nou....@gmail.com
Boodskappe: 116
Geregistreer: Junie 2005
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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On Jul 12, 12:21 pm, umfo...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Hier's my weergawe:
>> ----
>
>> Hierdie kant van die waarheid
>> mag jy dalk nie sien nie, my seun
>> Koning van jou blou oë
>> in die verblindende land van die jeug
>> Dat alles ongedaan is
>> onder die onbetrokke hemele
>> van onskuld en en skuld
>> Voor jy nog kan wik of maak
>> 'n gebaar van hoof of hart
>> Word alles weggehaal en
>> bymekaargemaak, verstrooi
>> in die wentelende duister
>> soos die stof van dooies
>
> The more times I read your version, the better I like it. Thanks also
> for the implicit corrections.
>
> One thing: "This side of the truth, / You may not see, my son" you
> render as "Hierdie kant van die waarheid / mag jy dalk nie sien nie,
> my seun". I understand that "mag" here indicates possibility, rather
> than (a lack of) permission? I.e., "perhaps you cannot see this side
> of the truth", rather than "you had better not see this side of the
> truth".
The meaning of Afrikaans "mag" quite closely matches "may" in this
case,
with the two different meanings equally valid, although "dalk" would
most
likely also be added to distinguish better in normal conversation.
> In Dutch, by contrast, "mogen" normally refers to permission. "Dat mag
> je niet zien" - "You aren't allowed to see that." Whereas "Maybe you
> can't see that" would be "Dat kun je misschien niet zien." In any
> case, this issue gets me thinking about whether "You may not see, my
> son" indicates that the son is likely not to perceive the awaiting
> oblivion, or perhaps that the writer thinks it best that the son is
> not (yet) told that all things will perish. Even though there is
> solace in all things perishing because evil will "die in unjudging
> love".
>
> Below are the two remaining stanzas of Thomas's poem, followed by my
> Afrikaans translation. Improvements are welcome, as is any type of
> commentary!
>
> Good and bad, two ways
> Of moving about your death
> By the grinding sea,
> King of your heart in the blind days,
> Blow away like breath,
> Go crying through you and me
> And the souls of all men
> Into the innocent
> Dark, and the guilty dark, and good
> Death, and bad death, and then
> In the last element
> Fly like the stars' blood
>
> Like the sun's tears,
> Like the moon's seed, rubbish
> And fire, the flying rant
> Of the sky, king of your six years.
> And the wicked wish,
> Down the beginning of plants
> And animals and birds,
> Water and Light, the earth and sky,
> Is cast before you move,
> And all your deeds and words,
> Each truth, each lie,
> Die in unjudging love.
>
> Goed en sleg, twee wyses
> Om dood toe oor die pad te loop
> Na die malende see,
> Koning van jou hart in die blinde dae,
> Waai weg soos 'n asemstoot,
> Gaan skreeuend deur jou en deur my
> En die siele van almal
> En kom in die onskuldige
> Donker, en die skuldige donker, en goede
> Dood, en slegte dood, en dan
> In die laaste element,
> Vlieg hulle soos sterrebloed,
>
> Soos trane van die son,
> Soos saadjies van die maan, afval
> En vuur, die vlieënde gekrys
> Van die hemel, koning van jou zes jaar,
> En die kwaaie wens,
> Wat kom van die eerste plante
> En diere en voeëls,
> Water en Lig, die aarde en die hemel,
> Is verwerp voor jy dit selfs kan sien
> En al jou dade en woorde,
> Elke waarheid, elke leuen
> Sterf in liefde wat nie oordeel nie.
>
> Signed,
> Umfol...
Hier gaan ons, ek het redelik vry vanaf die Engels gewerk,
doelbewus sonder om na jou vertaling te kyk.
--
Goed en boos, twee wëe
van met die dood omgaan
By die malende see
Koning van jou hart in die blinde dae
Waai weg soos asem
Gaan wenend deur jou en my
En die siele van almal
In die onskuldige
Duister, en die skuldige duister, en goeie
dood, en slegte dood, en dan
in die laaste element
vlieg soos die sterre se bloed
Soos die son se trane
Soos die maan se saad, afval
en vuur, die vlieende geskel
Van die hemel, koning van jou ses jaar
En die bose wens
Onder die begin van plante
en diere en voëls
Water en Lig, die aarde en lug
is gegiet voordat jy roer,
en al jou dade en woorde
elke waarheid, elke leuen
sterf in onveroordeelende liefde
--
Nouprajy
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| Re: Comparative Afrikaans / Dutch / Low Saxon translation [boodskap #114229 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #114224] |
Ma, 16 Julie 2007 18:54 |
umfo...
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Geregistreer: Julie 2007
Karma: 0
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Junior Lid |
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Thanks again for your version.
>> Good and bad, two ways
>> Of moving about your death
>> By the grinding sea,
>> Goed en sleg, twee wyses
>> Om dood toe oor die pad te loop
>> Na die malende see,
> Goed en boos, twee wëe
> van met die dood omgaan
> By die malende see
"Moving about your death", I think is more or less "Going any coiling
direction you choose (walking along good paths or bad ones), but
always heading ultimately towards your death."
With "dood toe [...] loop", I tried to use, in a figurative way, a
typical Afrikaans turn of phrase which is somewhat different in Dutch.
An example: "As jy 'n migraine het, gaan jy dokter toe en hy gee vir
jou 'n pyninspuiting."
In Dutch: "Als je migraine hebt, ga je naar de dokter (toe) en geeft
hij je een injectie tegen de pijn."
"Ek gaan huis toe."
"Ik ga naar huis (toe)."
Cheers,
Umfol...
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| Re: Comparative Afrikaans / Dutch / Low Saxon translation [boodskap #114230 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #114229] |
Ma, 16 Julie 2007 19:56 |
Nou....@gmail.com
Boodskappe: 116
Geregistreer: Junie 2005
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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On Jul 16, 8:54 pm, umfo...@gmail.com wrote:
> Thanks again for your version.
>
>>> Good and bad, two ways
>>> Of moving about your death
>>> By the grinding sea,
>>> Goed en sleg, twee wyses
>>> Om dood toe oor die pad te loop
>>> Na die malende see,
>> Goed en boos, twee wëe
>> van met die dood omgaan
>> By die malende see
>
> "Moving about your death", I think is more or less "Going any coiling
> direction you choose (walking along good paths or bad ones), but
> always heading ultimately towards your death."
>
> With "dood toe [...] loop", I tried to use, in a figurative way, a
> typical Afrikaans turn of phrase which is somewhat different in Dutch.
>
> An example: "As jy 'n migraine het, gaan jy dokter toe en hy gee vir
> jou 'n pyninspuiting."
> In Dutch: "Als je migraine hebt, ga je naar de dokter (toe) en geeft
> hij je een injectie tegen de pijn."
>
> "Ek gaan huis toe."
> "Ik ga naar huis (toe)."
>
Oh, I se what you mean. However, the line
"Om dood toe oor die pad te loop"
would rather mean "to cross the road on your way to death".
How about this then:
"...two ways/ of moving about your death/By the grinding sea"
translated as
"twee weë / om jou dood te betree/ by die malende see"
--
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