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| Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109153] |
Thu, 23 February 2006 01:22  |
Jim Again
Boodskappe: 246
Geregistreer: January 2007
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MOSES SE KUSITIESE VROU
[Hierdie bybelstudie met die komplimente van JW12 vanaf
Praag se GF] ...
Num. 12: 1 : "En Mirjam en Aäron het teen Moses gespreek
vanweë die Kusitiese vrou wat hy geneem het ; want hy het
'n Kusitiese vrou geneem." [1933/53 Vertaling].
Die hele Bybel spreek openlik en lynreg teen enige vorm
van rasse-vermenging en/of integrasie. Israel was altyd
streng voorgeskryf om NIE te vermeng nie. Hieroor is
die Bybel konsekwent. Selfs Christus praat teen ver-
menging in die boek van Openbaring.
Ons liberale teoloë en Babiloniese Eenheidsleer-verkondigers
misbruik graag "Moses se Kusitiese vrou" om vermenging en
verbastering goed te keur, solank dit "in die Naam van Jesus
geskied".
Die skrywer sal vervolgens bo alle twyfel aandui dat Moses
met hierdie Kusitiese vrou (Adoniah) slegs weens politiese
redes getrou het ['n politiese troue], en dat Moses haar nooit
aangeraak het, of enige kinders by haar gekry het nie.
Eerstens : Let op na Mirjam en Aäron se reaksie en optrede
omdat Moses 'n 'Kusitiese vrou' gehad het. - Hulle het teen
Moses gespreek. Die vraag is : Waarom sou hulle dan teen
Moses spreek indien dit moontlik aanvaarbaar sou wees vir
'n Israeliet om met een van die kinders van Gam ('n ander
ras of etniese groep) te trou ? - Mirjam en Aäron was slegs
oningelig oor Moses se Kusitiese vrou, en het nie onmiddelik
besef dat dit slegs 'n politiese troue was nie.
Lees verder ...
DIE BOEK VAN JASHER [Jasher = "Upright"]
Die boek van Jasher is 'n belangrike en onmisbare geskrif wat
betroubare feite en geskiedenis vanaf Adam tot Joshua bevat.
Dit is een van die boeke wat verkeerdelik uit Die Bybel uitge-
laat is, omdat dit akkuraat oorenstem met die ooreenkomstige
Bybelboeke van sy tyd. In Die Bybel word daar dan ook ver-
wys na die boek van Jasher.
Die boek van Jasher moet ook gesien word as deel van Die
Bybel, en word met reg aangehaal in Young's Analytical
Concordance. In die Afrikaanse vertaling [1933/53] word
die boek van Jasher genoem "die boek van die Opregte" :
Josua 10: 13 :
1933/53 Vertaling : "...Staan dit nie geskrywe in die boek van
die Opregte nie ?..."
Amplified Bible : "...Is not this written in the Book of Jasher ?..."
Eng. Std. Version : "...Is this not written in the Book of Jashar ?..."
N.W. Translation : "...Is it not written in the Book of Jashar ?..."
King James Vers : "...Is not this written in the Book of Jasher ?..."
Young's Concord : "...Is not this written in the Book of Jasher ?..."
2 Sam. 1: 18 :
1933/53 Vertaling : "...kyk, dit is geskrywe in die boek van die
Opregte."
Amplified Bible : "...Behold, it is written in the Book of Jasher :"
Eng. Std. Version : "...behold, it is written in the Book of Jashar."
N.W. Translation : "...Look ! It is written in the Book of Jashar :"
King James Vers : "...Behold, it is written in the Book of Jasher :"
Young's Concord : "...Behold, it is written in the Book of Jasher :"
Die volgende uit die boek van Jasher : [Lees die hele Hoofstuk 73
hier onder aan] ...
Jas. 73: 31 : "...and they gave him for a wife Adoniah the Cushite
Queen, wife of Kikianus."
32. "...so that he came not to her, nor did he turn his eyes to her."
36. "Therefore Moses turned not his heart nor his eyes to the wife
of Kikianus all the days that he reigned over Cush."
Hier volg nou die meer volledige verslag in Engels :
Moses marries an Ethiopian (Cushite) princess, named Adoniah.
(3) According to later midrashic accounts, when Moses was a
young man, one King Kikianus ruled over Ethiopia (Cush).
War broke out between Ethiopia and the East, and Kikianus led
his army into battle. He left an official named Balaam in charge of
the capital city. But in the king's absence, Balaam won the people
over to his side and usurped the throne. To prevent Kikianus's
return, Balaam and his sons blockaded the city by building high
walls and thick ramparts and digging canals. They also intro-
duced swarms of venomous snakes that made it perilous to
approach the city. Kikianus besieged the city but failed to
breach the walls. For nine years, Kikianus camped
outside his capital.
When Moses fled Pharaoh, he happened upon Kikianus's camp,
was invited to join his troops and eventually rose to the position
of commander in chief : Moses, the legend goes, "exercised an
attraction upon all that saw him, for he was slender like a palm-
tree, his countenance shone as the morning sun and his strength
was equal to a lion's."
Eventually, Kikianus died, still in exile. The army "could find
none except Moses fit to be their king." They crowned the
Hebrew and offered him Kikianus's widow, Adoniah, as his
bride. So, at age 27 Moses became king of Ethiopia. After
recapturing the city from Balaam, he reigned for 40 years.
But in his 40th year of rule, the midrash recounts, Adoniah
publicly addressed her people : "What is this thing that you,
the people of Ethiopia, have done these many days ?
Surely you know that during the forty years this man has
reigned over you, he has not approached me, nor has he
worshiped the gods of Ethiopia. Now, therefore, let this
man reign over you no more, for he is not of our flesh.
Behold, Monarchos my son [by Kikianus] is grown up,
let him reign over you. It is better for you to serve the
son of your lord than a stranger, a slave of the king of
Egypt."
Moses was dismissed. Fearing to return to Pharaoh,
he fled to Midian, where he would, of course, meet
Zipporah.
(3) This version is presented in the Book of Jasher Chapter
72 , 73 and 76. See also Louis Ginzberg, Legends of the
Bible (Philadelphia : Jewish Publication Society, 1956), pp.
299-302; and Dewey M. Beegle, "Moses," The Anchor
Bible Dictionary, 6 vols. (New York: Doubleday, 1992),
vol. 4, p. 917.
JASHER CHAPTER 73 [1-48]
In the fifty-fifth year of the reign of Pharaoh king of
Egypt, that is in the hundred and fifty-seventh year
of the Israelites going down into Egypt, reigned
Moses in Cush.
Moses was twenty-seven years old when he began to
reign over Cush, and forty years did he reign. And the
Lord granted Moses favor and grace in the eyes of all
the children of Cush, and the children of Cush loved
him exceedingly, so Moses was favored by the Lord
and by men.
And in the seventh day of his reign, all the children of
Cush assembled and came before Moses and bowed
down to him to the ground. And all the children spoke
together in the presence of the king, saying ; Give us
counsel that we may see what is to be done to this city.
For it is now nine years that we have been besieging
round about the city, and have not seen our children
and our wives.
So the king answered them, saying : If you will hearken
to my voice in all that I shall command you, then will the
Lord give the city into our hands and we shall subdue it.
For if we fight with them as in the former battle which
we had with them before the death of Kikianus, many
of us will fall down wounded as before.
Now therefore behold here is counsel for you in this
matter ; if you will hearken to my voice, then will the
city be delivered into our hands. So all the forces
answered the king, saying ; All that our lord shall
command that will we do.
And Moses said unto them ; Pass through and pro-
claim a voice in the whole camp unto all the people,
saying ; Thus says the king ; Go into the forest and
bring with you of the young ones of the stork, each
man a young one in his hand.
And any person transgressing the word of the king,
who shall not bring his young one, he shall die, and
the king will take all belonging to him.
And when you shall bring them they shall be in your
keeping, you shall rear them until they grow up, and
you shall teach them to dart upon, as is the way of
the young ones of the hawk.
So all the children of Cush heard the words of Moses,
and they rose up and caused a proclamation to be
issued throughout the camp, saying : Unto you, all
the children of Cush, the king's order is, that you
go all together to the forest, and catch there the
young storks each man his young one in his hand,
and you shall bring them home.
And any person violating the order of the king shall
die, and the king will take all that belongs to him.
And all the people did so, and they went out to the
wood and they climbed the fir trees and caught,
each man a young one in his hand, all the young
of the storks, and they brought them into the
desert and reared them by order of the king,
and they taught them to dart upon, similar to
the young hawks.
And after the young storks were reared, the king
ordered them to be hungered for three days, and
all the people did so.
And on the third day, the king said unto them ;
Strengthen yourselves and become valiant men,
and put on each man his armor and gird on his
sword upon him, and ride each man his horse
and take each his young stork in his hand.
And we will rise up and fight against the city at
the place where the serpents are ; and all the
people did as the king had ordered.
And they took each man his young one in his
hand, and they went away, and when they came
to the place of the serpents the king said to them ;
Send forth each man his young stork upon the
serpents.
And they sent forth each man his young stork at
the king's order, and the young storks ran upon
the serpents and they devoured them all and
destroyed them out of that place.
And when the king and people had seen that all
the serpents were destroyed in that place, all the
people set up a great shout.
And they approached and fought against the city
and took it and subdued it, and they entered the
city. And there died on that day one thousand
and one hundred men of the people of the city,
all that inhabited the city, but of the people
besieging not one died.
So all the children of Cush went each to his home,
to his wife and children and to all belonging to him.
And Balaam the magician, when he saw that the
city was taken, he opened the gate and he and
his two sons and eight brothers fled and returned
to Egypt to Pharaoh king of Egypt.
They are the sorcerers and magicians who are
mentioned in the book of the Law, standing
against Moses when the Lord brought the
plagues upon Egypt.
So Moses took the city by his wisdom, and the
children of Cush placed him on the throne instead
of Kikianus king of Cush.
And they placed the royal crown upon his head,
and they gave him for a wife Adoniah the Cushite
queen, wife of Kikianus.
And Moses feared the Lord God of his fathers,
so that he came not to her, nor did he turn his
eyes to her. For Moses remembered how
Abraham had made his servant Eliezer swear,
saying unto him ; Thou shalt not take a woman
from the daughters of Canaan for my son Isaac.
Also what Isaac did when Jacob had fled from
his brother, when he commanded him, saying ;
Thou shalt not take a wife from the daughters
of Canaan, nor make alliance with any of the
children of Ham.
For the Lord our God gave Ham the son of
Noah, and his children and all his seed, as
slaves to the children of Shem and to the
children of Japheth, and unto their seed
after them for slaves, forever.
Therefore Moses turned not his heart nor his
eyes to the wife of Kikianus all the days that
he reigned over Cush.
And Moses feared the Lord his God all his life,
and Moses walked before the Lord in truth, with
all his heart and soul, he turned not from the right
way all the days of his life ; he declined not from
the way either to the right or to the left, in which
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had walked.
And Moses strengthened himself in the kingdom
of the children of Cush, and he guided the children
of Cush with his usual wisdom, and Moses pros-
pered in his kingdom.
And at that time Aram and the children of the east
heard that Kikianus king of Cush had died, so
Aram and the children of the east rebelled against
Cush in those days.
And Moses gathered all the children of Cush, a
people very mighty, about thirty thousand men,
and he went forth to fight with Aram and the
children of the east.
And they went at first to the children of the east,
and when the children of the east heard their
report, they went to meet them, and engaged
in battle with them.
And the war was severe against the children of
the east, so the Lord gave all the children of the
east into the hand of Moses, and about three
hundred men fell down slain.
And all the children of the east turned back and
retreated, so Moses and the children of Cush
followed them and subdued them, and put a
tax upon them, as was their custom.
So Moses and all the people with him passed
from there to the land of Aram for battle.
And the people of Aram also went to meet them,
and they fought against them, and the Lord deli-
vered them into the hand of Moses, and many
of the men of Aram fell down wounded.
And Aram also were subdued by Moses and the
people of Cush, and also gave their usual tax.
And Moses brought Aram and the children of the
east under subjection to the children of Cush, and
Moses and all the people who were with him,
turned to the land of Cush.
And Moses strengthened himself in the kingdom
of the children of Cush, and the Lord was with
him, and all the children of Cush were afraid of
him.
JW12
------------------------------------------------------------ ------
Die res sal volg ...
Jim
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109164 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109153] |
Thu, 23 February 2006 06:28  |
Deneneile
Boodskappe: 65
Geregistreer: November 2005
Karma: 0
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Volle Lid |
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Die Bybel is maar die geloof van een groep mense, net soos Islam, Hindoes en
Buddhisme tog was daar honderde sulke gelowe met hul eie gode. Maar soos
met die Crusades was een geloof op ander volke gedwing so wie weet watter
geloof is nou die regte een en wie se God is die magtigste. Ek glo tussen
die volgelinge was daar dan ook 'n "My God is magtiger as joune" houding.
So kan dit miskien gelei het tot al die wonderwerke wat ons lees, dooies
lewendig maak, op water loop, groot vloede, met wolke opstyg en wat ook al
wat die span volgelinge wil hul god beter maak as 'n ander. Soos bv die
karakter van Jesus se geloof trek nader aan Buddhisme se St. Issa. Baie
meen die verlore jare van Jesus het hy in die Ooste deurgebring en dat hy
Buddhisme geleer het. Soos 'n etv program gewys het, het Jesus nooit met 'n
wolk opgestyg nie, maar na sy kruisiging terug gegaan het na die ooste en
gesterf het in sy 80's. Ek kan die die land se naam onthou nie maar volgens
die legende van die land die graf van St. Issa/Jesus is daar. Kyk ook met
die ontdekking van dinosaur gebeentes nerens kom dit in die Bybel voor nie
maar wetenskaplikes het die bewyse. Kyk met NASA ook, hulle kom al hoe
nader om lewe te ontdek op ander planete so as hulle eendag 'n planeet met
lewe kry dan sal ons Bybel 'n hewige nok vat. Die Bybel self is 'n raaisel
en baie kere weerspreek die Bybel se woorde mekaar, is dit omdat die Bybel
gesktyf is deur mense en verdraai is oor diegene wat Mag wou he, hier kom
Konstantyn sterk deur. Kyk hoe het ET ook dan Bybel verse aangehaal om sy
punt te versterk.
www.carm.org/lostbooks.htm http://www.bibleufo.com/anomlostbooks.htm
"Jim Again..." wrote in message
news:1140657720.420515.181880@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com.. .
MOSES SE KUSITIESE VROU
[Hierdie bybelstudie met die komplimente van JW12 vanaf
Praag se GF] ...
Num. 12: 1 : "En Mirjam en Aäron het teen Moses gespreek
vanweë die Kusitiese vrou wat hy geneem het ; want hy het
'n Kusitiese vrou geneem." [1933/53 Vertaling].
Die hele Bybel spreek openlik en lynreg teen enige vorm
van rasse-vermenging en/of integrasie. Israel was altyd
streng voorgeskryf om NIE te vermeng nie. Hieroor is
die Bybel konsekwent. Selfs Christus praat teen ver-
menging in die boek van Openbaring.
Ons liberale teoloë en Babiloniese Eenheidsleer-verkondigers
misbruik graag "Moses se Kusitiese vrou" om vermenging en
verbastering goed te keur, solank dit "in die Naam van Jesus
geskied".
Die skrywer sal vervolgens bo alle twyfel aandui dat Moses
met hierdie Kusitiese vrou (Adoniah) slegs weens politiese
redes getrou het ['n politiese troue], en dat Moses haar nooit
aangeraak het, of enige kinders by haar gekry het nie.
Eerstens : Let op na Mirjam en Aäron se reaksie en optrede
omdat Moses 'n 'Kusitiese vrou' gehad het. - Hulle het teen
Moses gespreek. Die vraag is : Waarom sou hulle dan teen
Moses spreek indien dit moontlik aanvaarbaar sou wees vir
'n Israeliet om met een van die kinders van Gam ('n ander
ras of etniese groep) te trou ? - Mirjam en Aäron was slegs
oningelig oor Moses se Kusitiese vrou, en het nie onmiddelik
besef dat dit slegs 'n politiese troue was nie.
Lees verder ...
DIE BOEK VAN JASHER [Jasher = "Upright"]
Die boek van Jasher is 'n belangrike en onmisbare geskrif wat
betroubare feite en geskiedenis vanaf Adam tot Joshua bevat.
Dit is een van die boeke wat verkeerdelik uit Die Bybel uitge-
laat is, omdat dit akkuraat oorenstem met die ooreenkomstige
Bybelboeke van sy tyd. In Die Bybel word daar dan ook ver-
wys na die boek van Jasher.
Die boek van Jasher moet ook gesien word as deel van Die
Bybel, en word met reg aangehaal in Young's Analytical
Concordance. In die Afrikaanse vertaling [1933/53] word
die boek van Jasher genoem "die boek van die Opregte" :
Josua 10: 13 :
1933/53 Vertaling : "...Staan dit nie geskrywe in die boek van
die Opregte nie ?..."
Amplified Bible : "...Is not this written in the Book of Jasher ?..."
Eng. Std. Version : "...Is this not written in the Book of Jashar ?..."
N.W. Translation : "...Is it not written in the Book of Jashar ?..."
King James Vers : "...Is not this written in the Book of Jasher ?..."
Young's Concord : "...Is not this written in the Book of Jasher ?..."
2 Sam. 1: 18 :
1933/53 Vertaling : "...kyk, dit is geskrywe in die boek van die
Opregte."
Amplified Bible : "...Behold, it is written in the Book of Jasher :"
Eng. Std. Version : "...behold, it is written in the Book of Jashar."
N.W. Translation : "...Look ! It is written in the Book of Jashar :"
King James Vers : "...Behold, it is written in the Book of Jasher :"
Young's Concord : "...Behold, it is written in the Book of Jasher :"
Die volgende uit die boek van Jasher : [Lees die hele Hoofstuk 73
hier onder aan] ...
Jas. 73: 31 : "...and they gave him for a wife Adoniah the Cushite
Queen, wife of Kikianus."
32. "...so that he came not to her, nor did he turn his eyes to her."
36. "Therefore Moses turned not his heart nor his eyes to the wife
of Kikianus all the days that he reigned over Cush."
Hier volg nou die meer volledige verslag in Engels :
Moses marries an Ethiopian (Cushite) princess, named Adoniah.
(3) According to later midrashic accounts, when Moses was a
young man, one King Kikianus ruled over Ethiopia (Cush).
War broke out between Ethiopia and the East, and Kikianus led
his army into battle. He left an official named Balaam in charge of
the capital city. But in the king's absence, Balaam won the people
over to his side and usurped the throne. To prevent Kikianus's
return, Balaam and his sons blockaded the city by building high
walls and thick ramparts and digging canals. They also intro-
duced swarms of venomous snakes that made it perilous to
approach the city. Kikianus besieged the city but failed to
breach the walls. For nine years, Kikianus camped
outside his capital.
When Moses fled Pharaoh, he happened upon Kikianus's camp,
was invited to join his troops and eventually rose to the position
of commander in chief : Moses, the legend goes, "exercised an
attraction upon all that saw him, for he was slender like a palm-
tree, his countenance shone as the morning sun and his strength
was equal to a lion's."
Eventually, Kikianus died, still in exile. The army "could find
none except Moses fit to be their king." They crowned the
Hebrew and offered him Kikianus's widow, Adoniah, as his
bride. So, at age 27 Moses became king of Ethiopia. After
recapturing the city from Balaam, he reigned for 40 years.
But in his 40th year of rule, the midrash recounts, Adoniah
publicly addressed her people : "What is this thing that you,
the people of Ethiopia, have done these many days ?
Surely you know that during the forty years this man has
reigned over you, he has not approached me, nor has he
worshiped the gods of Ethiopia. Now, therefore, let this
man reign over you no more, for he is not of our flesh.
Behold, Monarchos my son [by Kikianus] is grown up,
let him reign over you. It is better for you to serve the
son of your lord than a stranger, a slave of the king of
Egypt."
Moses was dismissed. Fearing to return to Pharaoh,
he fled to Midian, where he would, of course, meet
Zipporah.
(3) This version is presented in the Book of Jasher Chapter
72 , 73 and 76. See also Louis Ginzberg, Legends of the
Bible (Philadelphia : Jewish Publication Society, 1956), pp.
299-302; and Dewey M. Beegle, "Moses," The Anchor
Bible Dictionary, 6 vols. (New York: Doubleday, 1992),
vol. 4, p. 917.
JASHER CHAPTER 73 [1-48]
In the fifty-fifth year of the reign of Pharaoh king of
Egypt, that is in the hundred and fifty-seventh year
of the Israelites going down into Egypt, reigned
Moses in Cush.
Moses was twenty-seven years old when he began to
reign over Cush, and forty years did he reign. And the
Lord granted Moses favor and grace in the eyes of all
the children of Cush, and the children of Cush loved
him exceedingly, so Moses was favored by the Lord
and by men.
And in the seventh day of his reign, all the children of
Cush assembled and came before Moses and bowed
down to him to the ground. And all the children spoke
together in the presence of the king, saying ; Give us
counsel that we may see what is to be done to this city.
For it is now nine years that we have been besieging
round about the city, and have not seen our children
and our wives.
So the king answered them, saying : If you will hearken
to my voice in all that I shall command you, then will the
Lord give the city into our hands and we shall subdue it.
For if we fight with them as in the former battle which
we had with them before the death of Kikianus, many
of us will fall down wounded as before.
Now therefore behold here is counsel for you in this
matter ; if you will hearken to my voice, then will the
city be delivered into our hands. So all the forces
answered the king, saying ; All that our lord shall
command that will we do.
And Moses said unto them ; Pass through and pro-
claim a voice in the whole camp unto all the people,
saying ; Thus says the king ; Go into the forest and
bring with you of the young ones of the stork, each
man a young one in his hand.
And any person transgressing the word of the king,
who shall not bring his young one, he shall die, and
the king will take all belonging to him.
And when you shall bring them they shall be in your
keeping, you shall rear them until they grow up, and
you shall teach them to dart upon, as is the way of
the young ones of the hawk.
So all the children of Cush heard the words of Moses,
and they rose up and caused a proclamation to be
issued throughout the camp, saying : Unto you, all
the children of Cush, the king's order is, that you
go all together to the forest, and catch there the
young storks each man his young one in his hand,
and you shall bring them home.
And any person violating the order of the king shall
die, and the king will take all that belongs to him.
And all the people did so, and they went out to the
wood and they climbed the fir trees and caught,
each man a young one in his hand, all the young
of the storks, and they brought them into the
desert and reared them by order of the king,
and they taught them to dart upon, similar to
the young hawks.
And after the young storks were reared, the king
ordered them to be hungered for three days, and
all the people did so.
And on the third day, the king said unto them ;
Strengthen yourselves and become valiant men,
and put on each man his armor and gird on his
sword upon him, and ride each man his horse
and take each his young stork in his hand.
And we will rise up and fight against the city at
the place where the serpents are ; and all the
people did as the king had ordered.
And they took each man his young one in his
hand, and they went away, and when they came
to the place of the serpents the king said to them ;
Send forth each man his young stork upon the
serpents.
And they sent forth each man his young stork at
the king's order, and the young storks ran upon
the serpents and they devoured them all and
destroyed them out of that place.
And when the king and people had seen that all
the serpents were destroyed in that place, all the
people set up a great shout.
And they approached and fought against the city
and took it and subdued it, and they entered the
city. And there died on that day one thousand
and one hundred men of the people of the city,
all that inhabited the city, but of the people
besieging not one died.
So all the children of Cush went each to his home,
to his wife and children and to all belonging to him.
And Balaam the magician, when he saw that the
city was taken, he opened the gate and he and
his two sons and eight brothers fled and returned
to Egypt to Pharaoh king of Egypt.
They are the sorcerers and magicians who are
mentioned in the book of the Law, standing
against Moses when the Lord brought the
plagues upon Egypt.
So Moses took the city by his wisdom, and the
children of Cush placed him on the throne instead
of Kikianus king of Cush.
And they placed the royal crown upon his head,
and they gave him for a wife Adoniah the Cushite
queen, wife of Kikianus.
And Moses feared the Lord God of his fathers,
so that he came not to her, nor did he turn his
eyes to her. For Moses remembered how
Abraham had made his servant Eliezer swear,
saying unto him ; Thou shalt not take a woman
from the daughters of Canaan for my son Isaac.
Also what Isaac did when Jacob had fled from
his brother, when he commanded him, saying ;
Thou shalt not take a wife from the daughters
of Canaan, nor make alliance with any of the
children of Ham.
For the Lord our God gave Ham the son of
Noah, and his children and all his seed, as
slaves to the children of Shem and to the
children of Japheth, and unto their seed
after them for slaves, forever.
Therefore Moses turned not his heart nor his
eyes to the wife of Kikianus all the days that
he reigned over Cush.
And Moses feared the Lord his God all his life,
and Moses walked before the Lord in truth, with
all his heart and soul, he turned not from the right
way all the days of his life ; he declined not from
the way either to the right or to the left, in which
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had walked.
And Moses strengthened himself in the kingdom
of the children of Cush, and he guided the children
of Cush with his usual wisdom, and Moses pros-
pered in his kingdom.
And at that time Aram and the children of the east
heard that Kikianus king of Cush had died, so
Aram and the children of the east rebelled against
Cush in those days.
And Moses gathered all the children of Cush, a
people very mighty, about thirty thousand men,
and he went forth to fight with Aram and the
children of the east.
And they went at first to the children of the east,
and when the children of the east heard their
report, they went to meet them, and engaged
in battle with them.
And the war was severe against the children of
the east, so the Lord gave all the children of the
east into the hand of Moses, and about three
hundred men fell down slain.
And all the children of the east turned back and
retreated, so Moses and the children of Cush
followed them and subdued them, and put a
tax upon them, as was their custom.
So Moses and all the people with him passed
from there to the land of Aram for battle.
And the people of Aram also went to meet them,
and they fought against them, and the Lord deli-
vered them into the hand of Moses, and many
of the men of Aram fell down wounded.
And Aram also were subdued by Moses and the
people of Cush, and also gave their usual tax.
And Moses brought Aram and the children of the
east under subjection to the children of Cush, and
Moses and all the people who were with him,
turned to the land of Cush.
And Moses strengthened himself in the kingdom
of the children of Cush, and the Lord was with
him, and all the children of Cush were afraid of
him.
JW12
------------------------------------------------------------ ------
Die res sal volg ...
Jim
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109166 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109164] |
Thu, 23 February 2006 07:29 |
Deneneile
Boodskappe: 65
Geregistreer: November 2005
Karma: 0
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Volle Lid |
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Jim het jy nog verlore boeke?
"Deneile" skryf in boodskap news:dtjklt$ehi$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> Die Bybel is maar die geloof van een groep mense, net soos Islam, Hindoes
> en Buddhisme tog was daar honderde sulke gelowe met hul eie gode. Maar
> soos met die Crusades was een geloof op ander volke gedwing so wie weet
> watter geloof is nou die regte een en wie se God is die magtigste. Ek glo
> tussen die volgelinge was daar dan ook 'n "My God is magtiger as joune"
> houding. So kan dit miskien gelei het tot al die wonderwerke wat ons lees,
> dooies lewendig maak, op water loop, groot vloede, met wolke opstyg en wat
> ook al wat die span volgelinge wil hul god beter maak as 'n ander. Soos
> bv die karakter van Jesus se geloof trek nader aan Buddhisme se St. Issa.
> Baie meen die verlore jare van Jesus het hy in die Ooste deurgebring en
> dat hy Buddhisme geleer het. Soos 'n etv program gewys het, het Jesus
> nooit met 'n wolk opgestyg nie, maar na sy kruisiging terug gegaan het na
> die ooste en gesterf het in sy 80's. Ek kan die die land se naam onthou
> nie maar volgens die legende van die land die graf van St. Issa/Jesus is
> daar. Kyk ook met die ontdekking van dinosaur gebeentes nerens kom dit in
> die Bybel voor nie maar wetenskaplikes het die bewyse. Kyk met NASA ook,
> hulle kom al hoe nader om lewe te ontdek op ander planete so as hulle
> eendag 'n planeet met lewe kry dan sal ons Bybel 'n hewige nok vat. Die
> Bybel self is 'n raaisel en baie kere weerspreek die Bybel se woorde
> mekaar, is dit omdat die Bybel gesktyf is deur mense en verdraai is oor
> diegene wat Mag wou he, hier kom Konstantyn sterk deur. Kyk hoe het ET
> ook dan Bybel verse aangehaal om sy punt te versterk.
>
> www.carm.org/lostbooks.htm http://www.bibleufo.com/anomlostbooks.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Jim Again..." wrote in message
> news:1140657720.420515.181880@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com.. .
> MOSES SE KUSITIESE VROU
>
> [Hierdie bybelstudie met die komplimente van JW12 vanaf
> Praag se GF] ...
>
>
> Num. 12: 1 : "En Mirjam en Aäron het teen Moses gespreek
> vanweë die Kusitiese vrou wat hy geneem het ; want hy het
> 'n Kusitiese vrou geneem." [1933/53 Vertaling].
>
> Die hele Bybel spreek openlik en lynreg teen enige vorm
> van rasse-vermenging en/of integrasie. Israel was altyd
> streng voorgeskryf om NIE te vermeng nie. Hieroor is
> die Bybel konsekwent. Selfs Christus praat teen ver-
> menging in die boek van Openbaring.
>
> Ons liberale teoloë en Babiloniese Eenheidsleer-verkondigers
> misbruik graag "Moses se Kusitiese vrou" om vermenging en
> verbastering goed te keur, solank dit "in die Naam van Jesus
> geskied".
>
> Die skrywer sal vervolgens bo alle twyfel aandui dat Moses
> met hierdie Kusitiese vrou (Adoniah) slegs weens politiese
> redes getrou het ['n politiese troue], en dat Moses haar nooit
> aangeraak het, of enige kinders by haar gekry het nie.
>
> Eerstens : Let op na Mirjam en Aäron se reaksie en optrede
> omdat Moses 'n 'Kusitiese vrou' gehad het. - Hulle het teen
> Moses gespreek. Die vraag is : Waarom sou hulle dan teen
> Moses spreek indien dit moontlik aanvaarbaar sou wees vir
> 'n Israeliet om met een van die kinders van Gam ('n ander
> ras of etniese groep) te trou ? - Mirjam en Aäron was slegs
> oningelig oor Moses se Kusitiese vrou, en het nie onmiddelik
> besef dat dit slegs 'n politiese troue was nie.
>
> Lees verder ...
>
> DIE BOEK VAN JASHER [Jasher = "Upright"]
>
> Die boek van Jasher is 'n belangrike en onmisbare geskrif wat
> betroubare feite en geskiedenis vanaf Adam tot Joshua bevat.
> Dit is een van die boeke wat verkeerdelik uit Die Bybel uitge-
> laat is, omdat dit akkuraat oorenstem met die ooreenkomstige
> Bybelboeke van sy tyd. In Die Bybel word daar dan ook ver-
> wys na die boek van Jasher.
>
> Die boek van Jasher moet ook gesien word as deel van Die
> Bybel, en word met reg aangehaal in Young's Analytical
> Concordance. In die Afrikaanse vertaling [1933/53] word
> die boek van Jasher genoem "die boek van die Opregte" :
>
> Josua 10: 13 :
>
> 1933/53 Vertaling : "...Staan dit nie geskrywe in die boek van
> die Opregte nie ?..."
> Amplified Bible : "...Is not this written in the Book of Jasher ?..."
> Eng. Std. Version : "...Is this not written in the Book of Jashar ?..."
> N.W. Translation : "...Is it not written in the Book of Jashar ?..."
> King James Vers : "...Is not this written in the Book of Jasher ?..."
> Young's Concord : "...Is not this written in the Book of Jasher ?..."
>
> 2 Sam. 1: 18 :
>
> 1933/53 Vertaling : "...kyk, dit is geskrywe in die boek van die
> Opregte."
> Amplified Bible : "...Behold, it is written in the Book of Jasher :"
> Eng. Std. Version : "...behold, it is written in the Book of Jashar."
> N.W. Translation : "...Look ! It is written in the Book of Jashar :"
> King James Vers : "...Behold, it is written in the Book of Jasher :"
> Young's Concord : "...Behold, it is written in the Book of Jasher :"
>
> Die volgende uit die boek van Jasher : [Lees die hele Hoofstuk 73
> hier onder aan] ...
>
> Jas. 73: 31 : "...and they gave him for a wife Adoniah the Cushite
> Queen, wife of Kikianus."
> 32. "...so that he came not to her, nor did he turn his eyes to her."
> 36. "Therefore Moses turned not his heart nor his eyes to the wife
> of Kikianus all the days that he reigned over Cush."
>
>
> Hier volg nou die meer volledige verslag in Engels :
>
> Moses marries an Ethiopian (Cushite) princess, named Adoniah.
> (3) According to later midrashic accounts, when Moses was a
> young man, one King Kikianus ruled over Ethiopia (Cush).
>
> War broke out between Ethiopia and the East, and Kikianus led
> his army into battle. He left an official named Balaam in charge of
> the capital city. But in the king's absence, Balaam won the people
> over to his side and usurped the throne. To prevent Kikianus's
> return, Balaam and his sons blockaded the city by building high
> walls and thick ramparts and digging canals. They also intro-
> duced swarms of venomous snakes that made it perilous to
> approach the city. Kikianus besieged the city but failed to
> breach the walls. For nine years, Kikianus camped
> outside his capital.
>
> When Moses fled Pharaoh, he happened upon Kikianus's camp,
> was invited to join his troops and eventually rose to the position
> of commander in chief : Moses, the legend goes, "exercised an
> attraction upon all that saw him, for he was slender like a palm-
> tree, his countenance shone as the morning sun and his strength
> was equal to a lion's."
>
> Eventually, Kikianus died, still in exile. The army "could find
> none except Moses fit to be their king." They crowned the
> Hebrew and offered him Kikianus's widow, Adoniah, as his
> bride. So, at age 27 Moses became king of Ethiopia. After
> recapturing the city from Balaam, he reigned for 40 years.
>
> But in his 40th year of rule, the midrash recounts, Adoniah
> publicly addressed her people : "What is this thing that you,
> the people of Ethiopia, have done these many days ?
>
> Surely you know that during the forty years this man has
> reigned over you, he has not approached me, nor has he
> worshiped the gods of Ethiopia. Now, therefore, let this
> man reign over you no more, for he is not of our flesh.
>
> Behold, Monarchos my son [by Kikianus] is grown up,
> let him reign over you. It is better for you to serve the
> son of your lord than a stranger, a slave of the king of
> Egypt."
>
> Moses was dismissed. Fearing to return to Pharaoh,
> he fled to Midian, where he would, of course, meet
> Zipporah.
>
> (3) This version is presented in the Book of Jasher Chapter
> 72 , 73 and 76. See also Louis Ginzberg, Legends of the
> Bible (Philadelphia : Jewish Publication Society, 1956), pp.
> 299-302; and Dewey M. Beegle, "Moses," The Anchor
> Bible Dictionary, 6 vols. (New York: Doubleday, 1992),
> vol. 4, p. 917.
>
>
> JASHER CHAPTER 73 [1-48]
>
> In the fifty-fifth year of the reign of Pharaoh king of
> Egypt, that is in the hundred and fifty-seventh year
> of the Israelites going down into Egypt, reigned
> Moses in Cush.
>
> Moses was twenty-seven years old when he began to
> reign over Cush, and forty years did he reign. And the
> Lord granted Moses favor and grace in the eyes of all
> the children of Cush, and the children of Cush loved
> him exceedingly, so Moses was favored by the Lord
> and by men.
>
> And in the seventh day of his reign, all the children of
> Cush assembled and came before Moses and bowed
> down to him to the ground. And all the children spoke
> together in the presence of the king, saying ; Give us
> counsel that we may see what is to be done to this city.
>
> For it is now nine years that we have been besieging
> round about the city, and have not seen our children
> and our wives.
>
> So the king answered them, saying : If you will hearken
> to my voice in all that I shall command you, then will the
> Lord give the city into our hands and we shall subdue it.
>
> For if we fight with them as in the former battle which
> we had with them before the death of Kikianus, many
> of us will fall down wounded as before.
>
> Now therefore behold here is counsel for you in this
> matter ; if you will hearken to my voice, then will the
> city be delivered into our hands. So all the forces
> answered the king, saying ; All that our lord shall
> command that will we do.
>
> And Moses said unto them ; Pass through and pro-
> claim a voice in the whole camp unto all the people,
> saying ; Thus says the king ; Go into the forest and
> bring with you of the young ones of the stork, each
> man a young one in his hand.
>
> And any person transgressing the word of the king,
> who shall not bring his young one, he shall die, and
> the king will take all belonging to him.
>
> And when you shall bring them they shall be in your
> keeping, you shall rear them until they grow up, and
> you shall teach them to dart upon, as is the way of
> the young ones of the hawk.
>
> So all the children of Cush heard the words of Moses,
> and they rose up and caused a proclamation to be
> issued throughout the camp, saying : Unto you, all
> the children of Cush, the king's order is, that you
> go all together to the forest, and catch there the
> young storks each man his young one in his hand,
> and you shall bring them home.
>
> And any person violating the order of the king shall
> die, and the king will take all that belongs to him.
>
> And all the people did so, and they went out to the
> wood and they climbed the fir trees and caught,
> each man a young one in his hand, all the young
> of the storks, and they brought them into the
> desert and reared them by order of the king,
> and they taught them to dart upon, similar to
> the young hawks.
>
> And after the young storks were reared, the king
> ordered them to be hungered for three days, and
> all the people did so.
>
> And on the third day, the king said unto them ;
> Strengthen yourselves and become valiant men,
> and put on each man his armor and gird on his
> sword upon him, and ride each man his horse
> and take each his young stork in his hand.
>
> And we will rise up and fight against the city at
> the place where the serpents are ; and all the
> people did as the king had ordered.
>
> And they took each man his young one in his
> hand, and they went away, and when they came
> to the place of the serpents the king said to them ;
> Send forth each man his young stork upon the
> serpents.
>
> And they sent forth each man his young stork at
> the king's order, and the young storks ran upon
> the serpents and they devoured them all and
> destroyed them out of that place.
>
> And when the king and people had seen that all
> the serpents were destroyed in that place, all the
> people set up a great shout.
>
> And they approached and fought against the city
> and took it and subdued it, and they entered the
> city. And there died on that day one thousand
> and one hundred men of the people of the city,
> all that inhabited the city, but of the people
> besieging not one died.
>
> So all the children of Cush went each to his home,
> to his wife and children and to all belonging to him.
>
> And Balaam the magician, when he saw that the
> city was taken, he opened the gate and he and
> his two sons and eight brothers fled and returned
> to Egypt to Pharaoh king of Egypt.
>
> They are the sorcerers and magicians who are
> mentioned in the book of the Law, standing
> against Moses when the Lord brought the
> plagues upon Egypt.
>
> So Moses took the city by his wisdom, and the
> children of Cush placed him on the throne instead
> of Kikianus king of Cush.
>
> And they placed the royal crown upon his head,
> and they gave him for a wife Adoniah the Cushite
> queen, wife of Kikianus.
>
> And Moses feared the Lord God of his fathers,
> so that he came not to her, nor did he turn his
> eyes to her. For Moses remembered how
> Abraham had made his servant Eliezer swear,
> saying unto him ; Thou shalt not take a woman
> from the daughters of Canaan for my son Isaac.
>
> Also what Isaac did when Jacob had fled from
> his brother, when he commanded him, saying ;
> Thou shalt not take a wife from the daughters
> of Canaan, nor make alliance with any of the
> children of Ham.
>
> For the Lord our God gave Ham the son of
> Noah, and his children and all his seed, as
> slaves to the children of Shem and to the
> children of Japheth, and unto their seed
> after them for slaves, forever.
>
> Therefore Moses turned not his heart nor his
> eyes to the wife of Kikianus all the days that
> he reigned over Cush.
>
> And Moses feared the Lord his God all his life,
> and Moses walked before the Lord in truth, with
> all his heart and soul, he turned not from the right
> way all the days of his life ; he declined not from
> the way either to the right or to the left, in which
> Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had walked.
>
> And Moses strengthened himself in the kingdom
> of the children of Cush, and he guided the children
> of Cush with his usual wisdom, and Moses pros-
> pered in his kingdom.
>
> And at that time Aram and the children of the east
> heard that Kikianus king of Cush had died, so
> Aram and the children of the east rebelled against
> Cush in those days.
>
> And Moses gathered all the children of Cush, a
> people very mighty, about thirty thousand men,
> and he went forth to fight with Aram and the
> children of the east.
>
> And they went at first to the children of the east,
> and when the children of the east heard their
> report, they went to meet them, and engaged
> in battle with them.
>
> And the war was severe against the children of
> the east, so the Lord gave all the children of the
> east into the hand of Moses, and about three
> hundred men fell down slain.
>
> And all the children of the east turned back and
> retreated, so Moses and the children of Cush
> followed them and subdued them, and put a
> tax upon them, as was their custom.
>
> So Moses and all the people with him passed
> from there to the land of Aram for battle.
>
> And the people of Aram also went to meet them,
> and they fought against them, and the Lord deli-
> vered them into the hand of Moses, and many
> of the men of Aram fell down wounded.
>
> And Aram also were subdued by Moses and the
> people of Cush, and also gave their usual tax.
>
> And Moses brought Aram and the children of the
> east under subjection to the children of Cush, and
> Moses and all the people who were with him,
> turned to the land of Cush.
>
> And Moses strengthened himself in the kingdom
> of the children of Cush, and the Lord was with
> him, and all the children of Cush were afraid of
> him.
>
>
> JW12
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ------
>
> Die res sal volg ...
>
> Jim
>
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109168 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109164] |
Thu, 23 February 2006 09:42 |
Basjan
Boodskappe: 71
Geregistreer: March 2006
Karma: 0
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Volle Lid |
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"Deneile" skryf in boodskap news:dtjklt$ehi$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> Soos 'n etv program gewys het, het Jesus nooit met 'n wolk opgestyg nie,
> maar na sy kruisiging terug gegaan het na die ooste en gesterf het in sy
> 80's.
Well, as "etv" so sê, dan is dit sekerlik waar. "etv" is after all die begin
en einde van kennis en wysheid...
Basjan
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109169 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109168] |
Thu, 23 February 2006 09:56 |
Deneneile
Boodskappe: 65
Geregistreer: November 2005
Karma: 0
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Volle Lid |
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Jy lees weereerns verkeerd en maak verkeerde opsomming, 'n program op e-tv
het gewys! Dit is nie die mening van e-tv nie, maar in die end hang dit van
die kyker af hoe hy reageer op die program of dit tas sy denke aan of hy
skryf dit af as snert.
"Basjan" skryf in boodskap news:dtk018$mn5$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu...
> "Deneile" wrote in message
> news:dtjklt$ehi$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
>> Soos 'n etv program gewys het, het Jesus nooit met 'n wolk opgestyg nie,
>> maar na sy kruisiging terug gegaan het na die ooste en gesterf het in sy
>> 80's.
>
> Well, as "etv" so sê, dan is dit sekerlik waar. "etv" is after all die
> begin en einde van kennis en wysheid...
>
> Basjan
>
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109172 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109169] |
Thu, 23 February 2006 11:55 |
Basjan
Boodskappe: 71
Geregistreer: March 2006
Karma: 0
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Volle Lid |
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"Deneile" skryf in boodskap news:dtk0s9$mc1$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> Jy lees weereerns verkeerd en maak verkeerde opsomming, 'n program op e-tv
> het gewys! Dit is nie die mening van e-tv nie, maar in die end hang dit
> van die kyker af hoe hy reageer op die program of dit tas sy denke aan of
> hy skryf dit af as snert.
Beste Deneile,
Ek het maar jou sin hieronder aangehaal en daarop gereageer:
>> Soos 'n etv program gewys het, het Jesus nooit met 'n wolk opgestyg nie,
>> maar na sy kruisiging terug gegaan het na die ooste en gesterf het in sy
>> 80's.
Natuurlik is dit oorgelaat aan die kyker om te beoordeel, maar volgende week
maak etv 'n program oor aliens wat regtig tussen ons rondloop, ala Men in
Black. Ek sal so 'n program op dieselfde vlak plaas en beoordeel...
Terloops, wat is jou redenasie met:
>> Kyk met NASA ook, hulle kom al hoe nader om lewe te ontdek op ander
>> planete so as hulle eendag 'n planeet met lewe kry dan sal ons Bybel 'n
>> hewige nok vat.
Hoekom sal die Bybel 'n knok vat? Staan dit êrens geskryf dat ons die
enigste lewe in die heelal is? Of dat God beperk is?
Baie groete
Basjan
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109175 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109153] |
Thu, 23 February 2006 12:28 |
Dom
Boodskappe: 8
Geregistreer: February 2006
Karma: 0
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Junior Lid |
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"Jim Again..." wrote
<
> DIE BOEK VAN JASHER [Jasher = "Upright"]
> Die boek van Jasher is 'n belangrike en onmisbare geskrif wat
> betroubare feite en geskiedenis vanaf Adam tot Joshua bevat.
> Dit is een van die boeke wat verkeerdelik uit Die Bybel uitge-
> laat is, omdat dit akkuraat oorenstem met die ooreenkomstige
> Bybelboeke van sy tyd. In Die Bybel word daar dan ook ver-
> wys na die boek van Jasher.
Wie het besluit dit moenie in die Bybel wees nie?
Dom
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109176 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109175] |
Thu, 23 February 2006 12:31 |
Waaierstertmuis
Boodskappe: 1592
Geregistreer: October 2001
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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"Dom" skryf:
>
> "Jim Again..." wrote
> > DIE BOEK VAN JASHER [Jasher = "Upright"]
>
>> Die boek van Jasher is 'n belangrike en onmisbare geskrif wat
>> betroubare feite en geskiedenis vanaf Adam tot Joshua bevat.
>> Dit is een van die boeke wat verkeerdelik uit Die Bybel uitge-
>> laat is, omdat dit akkuraat oorenstem met die ooreenkomstige
>> Bybelboeke van sy tyd. In Die Bybel word daar dan ook ver-
>> wys na die boek van Jasher.
>
> Wie het besluit dit moenie in die Bybel wees nie?
>
> Dom
Uit Wikipedia:
Sefer haYashar (midrash), a Hebrew midrash known in English
translation mostly as The Book of Jasher.
According to the Encyclopaedia Judaica, Volume 14, p. 1099: "probably
written in the 13th century." But scholars have proposed various dates
between the 9th century and 16th century.
The Hebrew version was printed in Venice in 1625 and the introduction
refers to an earlier 1552 edition in Naples of which neither trace or
other mention has been found. The printer Joseph ben Samuel claimed
the work was copied by a scribe named Jacob the son of Atyah from an
ancient manuscript whose letters could hardly be made out.
The book seems to pretend to be the otherwise lost Sefer HaYashar
mentioned in Joshua and 2 Samuel and covers Biblical history from the
creation of Adam and Eve to a summary of the initial Israelite
conquest of Canaan in the beginning of the book of Judges. It contains
references that fit those cited in the Biblical texts, both the
reference about the sun and moon found in Joshua and also the
reference in 2 Samuel (in the Hebrew but not in the Septuagint) to
teaching the Sons of Judah to fight with the bow. This appears in
Jasher 56:9 among the last words of Jacob to his son Judah:
Only teach thy sons the bow and all weapons of war, in order that they
may fight the battles of their brother who will rule over his enemies.
But the book in its entirety cannot be so old as shown by chapter 10
covering the descendants of Noah which even contains medieval names
for territories and countries, perhaps mostly obviously Franza for
France and Lumbardi in Italia for Lombardy.
Most of its extra-Biblical accounts are found in nearly the same form
in either other medieval compilations, or in the Talmud, or in other
midrash or in Arabic sources. For example it contains the common tale
that Lamech and his son Jabal accidentally killed Cain, thus requiting
his wickedness for slaying Abel.
The Arabic connections suggests it was written by a Jew who lived in
Spain or southern Italy. The work was used extensively but not
especially more than many other sources in Louis Ginzberg's Legends of
the Jews.
In the 19th century, Moses Samuel of Liverpool, England, was given a
copy of the Hebrew work and became convinced that the core of this
work truly was the self-same Book of the Upright referenced in Hebrew
scriptures. He translated it into English and 1839 sold it to Mordecai
Manuel Noah, a Jewish New York publisher who published it the
following year.
Samuel's name did not appear on the translation. "I did not put my
name to it as my Patron and myself differed about its authenticity",
Samuel later explained. Yet M. M. Noah did enthusiastically claim that
the historian Josephus had stated on the Book of Jasher: "by this book
are to be understood certain records kept in some safe place on
purpose, giving an account of what happened among the Hebrews from
year to year, and called Jasher or the upright, on account of the
fidelity of the annals." No such statement is found in Josephus'
works.
Noah's published book also contained within it endorsements by four
top American Hebrew scholars of the day, all of whom praised the
quality of the translation but said nothing to indicate they believed
it to be the work referred to in Joshua and 2 Samuel. Indeed one of
them, Samuel H. Turner, referred to the "Rabbinical writer" and
another, George Bush, declared:
The work itself is evidently composed in the purest Rabbinical Hebrew,
with a large intermixture of the Biblical idiom, ...
Joseph Smith, Jr., founder of Mormonism and the Latter Day Saint
movement wrote somewhat diffidently in Times and Seasons, Sept. 1,
1842, in reference to the patriarch Abraham: "the book of Jasher,
which has not been disproved as a bad author, says he was cast into
the fire of the Chaldeans". (External Link: [Times and Seasons, Volume
3, Number 21 (http://www.centerplace.org/history/ts/v3n21.htm)].)
Subsequently copyright of the translation was obtained by J. H. Parry
& Company in Salt Lake City who published it in 1887. It has continued
to be held in high repute by many Mormons but is not officially
endorsed.
It is sometimes confused with the very different Book of Jasher
(Pseudo-Jasher), which is an obvious forgery.
For other works of the same name see Sefer haYashar.
Bibliography
Hebrew:
Sefer ha-Yashar, ed. Rosenthal, Berlin, 1898,
English translation:
Book of Jasher Referred to in Joshua and Second Samuel (1887), edited
by J. H. Parry (Kessinger Publishing Company, 1998). ISBN 0766102602
The Authentic Annals of the Early Hebrews: Also Known as the Book of
Jasher, edited by Wayne Simpson (Morris Publishing (NE), 1995)
(Hardcover - January 1995) ISBN 1575029626 hardcover; (Lightcatcher
Books, 2003) ISBN 0971938830 paperback
External links to Samuel's English translation
Plain text: Cumorah Project: LDS and World Classics
(http://www.cumorah.com/etexts/jasher.txt) (Includes translator's
preface.)
HTML:
Christian Etherial Library: Anonymous
(http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/home.html) (With graphic
reproduction of translator's preface.)
Pseudepigrapha
(http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/pseudepigrapha/jasher.html) or Sacred
Texts: Apocrypha
(http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/jasher/index.htm) or POEE: Other
Relgions: Cult of the One God
( http://www.poee.org/documents/Other_Religions/Cult_of_the_On e_God/jasher-html.htm)
PDF: Dubroom: Books
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109177 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109175] |
Thu, 23 February 2006 12:40 |
Waaierstertmuis
Boodskappe: 1592
Geregistreer: October 2001
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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"Dom" skryf:
>
> "Jim Again..." wrote
> > DIE BOEK VAN JASHER [Jasher = "Upright"]
>
>> Die boek van Jasher is 'n belangrike en onmisbare geskrif wat
>> betroubare feite en geskiedenis vanaf Adam tot Joshua bevat.
>> Dit is een van die boeke wat verkeerdelik uit Die Bybel uitge-
>> laat is, omdat dit akkuraat oorenstem met die ooreenkomstige
>> Bybelboeke van sy tyd. In Die Bybel word daar dan ook ver-
>> wys na die boek van Jasher.
Die Jasher boek is 'n Midrash - 'n KOMMENTAAR dus.
Volgens die woordeboek:
"Any of a group of Jewish commentaries on the Hebrew Scriptures
compiled between A.D. 400 and 1200 and based on exegesis, parable, and
haggadic legend.
[Hebrew midraÂ, commentary, explanation, Midrash, from daraÂ, to seek,
study.]
"
Midrash (mid'räsh) [Heb.,=to examine, to investigate], verse by verse
interpretation of Hebrew Scriptures, consisting of homily and
exegesis, by Jewish teachers since about 400 B.C. Distinction is made
between Midrash halakah, dealing with the legal portions of Scripture,
and Midrash haggada, dealing with biblical lore. Midrashic exposition
of both kinds appears throughout the Talmud. Individual midrashic
commentaries were composed by rabbis after the 2d cent. A.D. up to the
Middle Ages, and they were mostly of an aggadic nature, following the
order of the scriptural text. Important among them are the Midrash
Rabbah, a collection of commentaries on the Torah and the Five Scrolls
(the Song of Songs, Esther, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes), and the
Pesikta Midrashim, concerning the festivals. This body of rabbinic
literature contains the earliest speculative thought in the Jewish
tradition.
Bibliography
See H. L. Strack, Introduction to the Talmud and Midrash (1931, repr.
1969); L. Ginzberg, Legends of the Bible (1956); N. N. Glatzer, Hammer
on the Rock (1962).
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109179 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109153] |
Thu, 23 February 2006 13:55 |
nospam
Boodskappe: 274
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On 22 Feb 2006 17:22:00 -0800, "Jim Again..." wrote:
> MOSES SE KUSITIESE VROU
>
> [Hierdie bybelstudie met die komplimente van JW12 vanaf
> Praag se GF] ...
>
>
> Num. 12: 1 : "En Mirjam en Aäron het teen Moses gespreek
> vanweë die Kusitiese vrou wat hy geneem het ; want hy het
> 'n Kusitiese vrou geneem." [1933/53 Vertaling].
>
> Die hele Bybel spreek openlik en lynreg teen enige vorm
> van rasse-vermenging en/of integrasie.
Ja wel, ons is daai mense met wie die Jode nie mag meng nie.
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109181 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109177] |
Thu, 23 February 2006 14:32 |
Dom
Boodskappe: 8
Geregistreer: February 2006
Karma: 0
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Junior Lid |
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"Katryn" skryf in boodskap news:f1brv1t5q6ljmj6sdrmtvae951f9v0fdjb@4ax.com...
> "Dom" skryf:
>
>> "Jim Again..." wrote
>> >> DIE BOEK VAN JASHER [Jasher = "Upright"]
>>> Die boek van Jasher is 'n belangrike en onmisbare geskrif wat
>>> betroubare feite en geskiedenis vanaf Adam tot Joshua bevat.
>>> Dit is een van die boeke wat verkeerdelik uit Die Bybel uitge-
>>> laat is, omdat dit akkuraat oorenstem met die ooreenkomstige
>>> Bybelboeke van sy tyd. In Die Bybel word daar dan ook ver-
>>> wys na die boek van Jasher.
>
> Die Jasher boek is 'n Midrash - 'n KOMMENTAAR dus.
> Volgens die woordeboek:
> "Any of a group of Jewish commentaries on the Hebrew Scriptures
> compiled between A.D. 400 and 1200 and based on exegesis, parable, and
> haggadic legend.
>
> [Hebrew midras, commentary, explanation, Midrash, from daras, to seek,
> study.]
> "
> Midrash (mid'räsh) [Heb.,=to examine, to investigate], verse by verse
> interpretation of Hebrew Scriptures, consisting of homily and
> exegesis, by Jewish teachers since about 400 B.C. Distinction is made
> between Midrash halakah, dealing with the legal portions of Scripture,
> and Midrash haggada, dealing with biblical lore. Midrashic exposition
> of both kinds appears throughout the Talmud. Individual midrashic
> commentaries were composed by rabbis after the 2d cent. A.D. up to the
> Middle Ages, and they were mostly of an aggadic nature, following the
> order of the scriptural text. Important among them are the Midrash
> Rabbah, a collection of commentaries on the Torah and the Five Scrolls
> (the Song of Songs, Esther, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes), and the
> Pesikta Midrashim, concerning the festivals. This body of rabbinic
> literature contains the earliest speculative thought in the Jewish
> tradition.
> Bibliography
>
> See H. L. Strack, Introduction to the Talmud and Midrash (1931, repr.
> 1969); L. Ginzberg, Legends of the Bible (1956); N. N. Glatzer, Hammer
> on the Rock (1962).
>
Verskoon tog hierdie dom ou, maar ek verstaan nog nie wie't besluit dit
moenie in die bybel wees nie.
Kan Jim Again my tog asseblief daarmee help?
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109187 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109182] |
Thu, 23 February 2006 18:44 |
Dom
Boodskappe: 8
Geregistreer: February 2006
Karma: 0
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Junior Lid |
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"Lukas Louw" wrote
> Nog nooit van google gehoor nie?
>
> Paste hierdie in Google:
>
> bible include books decision
>
> Die 2de link gee dit:
>
> http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible5.html
>
> Lukas
Ek het gelees. dit klink maar deurmekaar vir my. hoekom antwoord Jim again
my nie? hy het van die boek vertel. hy sal seker die antwoord weet. wie
het besluit die boerk Jasher moenie in die Bybel wees nie. Of is my vraag
te dom om 'n kort en maklike antwoord te kry.
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109189 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109187] |
Thu, 23 February 2006 19:31 |
Lukas Louw
Boodskappe: 11
Geregistreer: October 2005
Karma: 0
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Junior Lid |
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Iemand erens weet seker hoekom die spesifieke boek nie ingesluit nie, en ek
dink dat Jim Again in elk geval vir iemand moet vra of eers navorsing doen.
My indruk van sy posts is dat hy maar basies ander mense se opinies gebruik
en na-aap.............
Paste hierdie kombinasie in google, en jy sal genoeg links kry om jou 'n ruk
besig the hou:
Jasher exclude bible
Lukas
> Ek het gelees. dit klink maar deurmekaar vir my. hoekom antwoord Jim
> again
> my nie? hy het van die boek vertel. hy sal seker die antwoord weet. wie
> het besluit die boerk Jasher moenie in die Bybel wees nie. Of is my vraag
> te dom om 'n kort en maklike antwoord te kry.
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109205 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109153] |
Fri, 24 February 2006 02:42 |
Jim Again
Boodskappe: 246
Geregistreer: January 2007
Karma: 0
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DIE HOFDIENAAR VAN ETHIÓPIË
1933/53 Vertaling :
Hand. 8: 27. "...En daar was 'n man van Ethiópië,
'n hofdienaar, 'n staatsamptenaar van Kandacé, die
Koningin van die Ethiópiërs, wat oor al haar skatte
was en na Jerusalem gekom het om te aanbid."
28. "En hy was op die terugreis en het op sy wa
gesit en die profeet Jesaja gelees."
29. "En Filippus het daarheen gehardloop en hom
die profeet Jesaja hoor lees ; en hy sê : Verstaan
u wel wat u lees ?"
Ons 'verligte' predikante, nl. ons liberale, babiloniese
eenheidsleerverkondigers hou baie daarvan om na die
Hofdienaar van Ethiópië te verwys as 'n swart man wat
deur Filippus gedoop is. Hulle 'gunsteling' redes hier-
voor is :
1) Hulle beweer hy was self 'n Ethiópiër / Kussiet
('n Swart man).
2) Hulle beweer hy was Swart omdat hy ontman
('n 'Eunuch') was.
3) Hulle beweer hy was Swart omdat hy in diens
onder Kandacé was.
4) Hulle beweer hy was Swart omdat hy uit Ethiópië
afkomstig was.
Nou sal die Skrywer hier duidelik aantoon dat hierdie
Hofdienaar nie swart was nie, maar dat hy sonder twy-
fel 'n Israeliet (Blanke Persoon) was, wat in die rege-
ring van Kandacé gedien het. Ons het reeds bewys
dat Israel 'n Blanke volk was.
1) Die Wet en die Profete het slegs oor Israel gehan-
del en was slegs vir die volk Israel bedoel. Slegs Is-
raeliete het die Wet en die Profete ontvang en as be-
sitting gehad, want geen ander volk het dit besit nie.
Hierdie Hofdienaar kon net 'n Israeliet ('n Blanke)
wees, want :
Eerstens kon hy lees ! En hy het (besit) die boekrol
van die Profete van Israel by hom.
Ja, hy lees nogal uit die Profeet Jesaja (wat hy waar
kry ?). Verder was hierdie Hofdienaar op pad na Jeru-
salem om te gaan aanbid. Alleen wié het in Jerusalem
gaan aanbid ? - Ja, slegs Israeliete (verál diegene wat
uit Jesaja lees) het daar gaan aanbid.
Let Wel : Daar staan : Hy was "...'n man van
Ethiópië,..." en NIE dat hy "...'n Ethiópiër..."
was nie. Hy was VAN Ethiópië.
2) In die Engelse vertalings word daar ook na die
'hofdienaar' verwys as 'n "eunuch". Die woord
"eunuch" het twee betekenisse nl. "gesnede"
en "kamerling" of "hofdienaar". [Young's Ana-
lytical Concordance].
In Jer. 34: 19 [Amplified Bible en N.W. Translation]
word die term "court officials" gebruik, waar dit vol-
gens 'Young's Analytical Concordance' vertaal word
met "Eunuchs". - Dws. 'n "Eunuch" was nie altyd 'n
gesnede of ontmande persoon nie. Verstrooide Is-
raeliete was ook al ontmandes / 'eunuchs' soos
beskryf in Jes. 56: 4 , 8.
3) Dit is nie vreemd dat lede uit die geslag van Adam
diens gelewer het in die Koninkryke van ander volke
nie. Dit was juis agv. hulle hoër intellektuele vermoëns
en beskaafdheid, dat hulle gesog was in die diens van
heersers.
Só was Josef óók oor alles in die koninkryk van Egipte
aangestel [Gen. 41: 41]. Moses self was 'n Egiptenaar
genoem, terwyl hy 'n Hebreër uit die Stam van Levi
was [Exod. 2: 1, 6, en 19].
Moses het ook vir veertig jaar oor Kus regeer [Jasher 73
; - Sien 'Moses se Kusitiese vrou']. Net so het hierdie
(Israelitiese) hofdienaar slegs diens gelewer in die re-
gering van Kandacé. Hy was 'n Blanke.
4) Hierdie Hofdienaar was nie uit die hedendaagse Ethi-
ópië afkomstig nie, maar wel uit Meroë. Meroë was des-
tyds 'n gebied wat vandag in Egipte lê, en nie in Ethiópië
soos wyd verkondig word nie.
Hier onder volg die verduidelikings en motiverings hiervan :
In die Die Bybel was die term "Ethiópië" of "Kus" ("Cush")
'n versamelnaam van vier verskillende geografiese gebiede,
nl. 'Nubia', 'Kordofan', 'Senaar' en 'Northern
Abyssinia'.
ETHIOPIA [Catholic Encyclopedia] :
It denoted the region of Africa south of Egypt, and its
boundaries were by no means constant. Generally
speaking, it comprised the countries known in our
day as Nubia, Kordofan, Senaar, and Northern
Abyssinia.
It had one unvarying landmark, however; its northern
boundary always began at Syene. We know from the
writings of Pliny, Strabo, and Pomponious Mela that
in the eyes of Greek geographers Ethiopia included
not only all the territory south of Syene on the Afri-
can continent, but embraced all that part of Asia
below the same parallel of latitude.
Hence it came to pass that there were two regions
with but one name : Eastern Ethiopia, including all
the races dwelling to the east of the Red Sea as far
as India ; Western Ethiopia stretching southward
from Egypt and westward as far as the southern
boundary of Mauritania.
Of all the vast tracks of country to which the name
Ethiopia was given at one or other period of history,
there are two to which the name has more particu-
larly attached itself : The one is modern Nubia and
the Egyptian Sudan (the ancient Ethiopia of the
Pharaohs); the other modern Abyssinia (the
Ethiopia of our own day), the last of all these
regions to preserve the ancient name.
NUBIAN ETHIOPIA [Catholic Encyclopedia] :
In Egyptian inscriptions the name Ethiopia is applied
to the region of the Upper Nile lying between the First
Cataract and the sources of the Atbara and of the Blue
Nile. Greek writers often call this region the kingdom
of Napata, or of Meroë, after two cities that were suc-
cessively the centre of its political life during the se-
cond period of its history. The name Island of Meroë,
sometimes met with, is an allusion to the rivers that
enclose it.
CUSH = "Black" [Young's Analytical Concordance] :
(3) It is also used to denote the land in which the des-
cendants of Cush dwelt, Ethiopia or Abyssinia.
(5) The land South of Ethiopia adduced with Phut and
Lud.
(6) Meroë enclosed by the Nile and the Atbar.
(7) A district in Susiana and Media.
Die term "Kandacé" was ook 'n versamelnaam vir 'n lyn
van Koninginne van Meroë. (Net soos die Farao's). Die
"Kandacé" van Handelinge 8 het regeer oor die streek
van Meroë.
CANDACE [Catholic Encyclopedia] :
The name of the 'Ethiopian' queen whose eunuch was
baptized by St. Philip (Acts, viii, 27 sqq.). The name
occurs in a ruined pyramid near ancient Meroe (Lipsius.
Denkmaler, V, 47). Another queen of the same name is
mentioned by Strabo (XVII, i, 54), and after him by Dion
Cassius (Hist. Rom., LIV, v ).
She revolted and waged war against the Romans and
was overpowered by Petronius in her capital of Napata,
22 B.C. Pliny (Hist. Nat., VI, 35) informs us that at the
time when Nero's explorers passed through Nubia, a
Queen Candace was reigning over the island of Meroe,
and adds that this name was a title common to all the
queens of that country.
"... quod nomen multis Jam annis ad reginas transiit".
The Ethiopia over which Candace reigned, according to
Hebrew usage and our authorities, was not the present
Abyssinia, as is often claimed, but is to be looked for in
the region called by the ancients the island of Meroë at
the confluence of the Nile and the Taccasi.
NUBIAN CHRONOLOGY [University of Chicago]
A-Group: 3800-3100 B.C.
C-Group: 2300-1550 B.C.
Kerma Culture: 2000-1559 B.C.
Egyptian Domination: 1950-1100 B.C.
Napatan Period: 747-200 B.C.
Meroitic Period: 200 B.C.-A.D. 300
X-Group: (Ballana Period) A.D. 250-550
Christian Period: A.D. 550-1400
Revised: July 24, 2000
1997 Oriental Institute, University of Chicago.
JW12
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109207 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109177] |
Fri, 24 February 2006 07:49 |
Torreke
Boodskappe: 1165
Geregistreer: April 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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Dankie, Katryn, vir die waardevolle inligting.
Ek weet uit die aard van my opleiding dat die OT kanon reeds vir alle
praktiese doeleindes in die dae van Jesus bestaan het; op enkele
uitsonderings na, haal die NT uit al die boeke aan wat vandag ons OT kanon
vorm. Die Rabbi's van Jamnia, +- 90nC, het maar net die seël geplaas op wat
eintlik reeds bekend was as "Moses en die profete". Dit is egter algemene
kennis dat daar baie meer geskryf is as wat in die OT kanon opgeneem is.
Die vasstelling van NT kanon lewer meer probleme op. Daar is ook baie meer
geskryf as wat in die NT opgeneem is. Paulus het waarskynlik 4 briewe aan
die Korinthiërs geskryf waarvan slegs die 2e en 4e in die Bybel opgeneem is.
Hy het ook 'n brief aan die Laodicense geskryf (Kol. 4:16) wat blykbaar
verlore geraak het.
Die OT verwys na baie meer boeke as net die Boek van die Opregte wat nie in
die OT kanon opgeneem is nie, bv die Kroniekboeke van die Konings.
Hierdie feite open natuurlik die deur vir mense om boeke soos dié van Jasher
te skryf en voor te gee dat dit nou die "verlore" boek is waarna die Bybel
verwys.
Wat mense gewoonlik uit die oog verloor is HOE die Bybel eintlik tot stand
gekom het, d.i. dat mense deur die Gees van God gedryf was om te preek en 'n
gedeelte van wat gepreek is, is later op skrif gestel - die sg "organiese
inspirasie". Dit beteken dat die Heilige Gees die eintlike Skrywer is, maar
dat hy die mense met hulle eie kenmerkende persoonlikhede en swakhede
daarvoor gebruik het. Daar is 'n duidelike Goddelike element en 'n
duidelike menslike element in elke boek van die Bybel; daarom kom daar ook
historiese foute en gebreke in die Bybel voor.
Teenoor die Bybel wat nie skaam is om te erken dat mense dit geskryf het
onder leiding van die Gees nie, staan die meeste ander godsdienstige
geskrifte, bv. die Koran, die Book of Mormon, wat daarop aaspraak maak dat
dit woord-vir-woord netso deur God gegee is - die sg "meganiese inspirasie".
In hierdie geval is die mens eintlik net 'n tikmasjien wat deur God gebruik
word en alles wat gesê is, is letterlik woord van God - wee hom wie waag om
iets daarvan te bevraagteken!
Die probleem met die uitleg van die Bybel is dat mense dikwels die Bybel wil
gebruik asof dit meganies geinspireer is - asof elke woord letterlik presies
so uit God se mond kom en die skrywers maar eintlik net tikmasjiene was.
Die gevolg van dié soort skrifgebruik lei bv. tot kreasionisme, 6000 jaar
van Adam tot by ons, ens. Die Bybel word gebruik om iets te probeer bewys
wat dit nooit bedoel het om te sê nie. Dit lei gewoonlik ook daartoe dat
mense ALLES wat die gelowiges in die Bybel gedoen het, behalwe as die Bybel
duidelik hom daarteen uitspreek, as reg en goed aanvaar en as
navolgingswaardige gedrag, bv. Die Bybel beskryf sonder doekies omdraai
die goed en sleg van die gelowiges se gedrag, maar laat meestal die
beoordeling aan die leser oor, bv Jefta en sy onbesonne eed wat gelei het
daartoe dat hy sy dogter moes offer, of Dawid wat na sy troonsbestyging sy
eertydse vrou, Migal, Saul se dogter, van haar man gaan afvat het. As mens
alles wat die gelowiges in die Bybelse tye gedoen het en wat die Bybel nie
uitdruklik veroordeel nie, as goed en reg en navolgingswaardige gedrag sou
aanvaar, sal jy vir jou baie gou in groot moeilikheid bevind.
Aan die ander kant is daar natuurlik die skeptici en ateiste wat soos
Daneile hulle teen die menslike element in die bybel blindstaar en dit dan
maar vir 'n blote menslike geskrif aansien.
Wie egter glo dat die Bybel die woord van God is ('n mens kan dit nie bewys
nie, net glo) staan verwonderd dat soveel verskillende mense oor 'n tydperk
van sowat 2000 jaar so eenstemmig kon getuig van wat hulle in hul verhouding
met God ervaar het, dat soveel verskillende boeke (Die Bybel is eintlik 'n
mini-biblioteek!) uit soveel verskillende mense se penne, saam één boek vorm
waarin daar 'n duidelike lyn loop van die skepping van alles (Gen. 1) tot by
die afsluiting van alle dinge, die nuwe hemel en nuwe aarde (Open. 21-22).
'n Boek met elke moontlike genré daarin opgeneem (prosa, poësie, apokalips,
profesie, noem maar op), wat vrymoedig en sonder om te bloos die seksuele
liefde (eros) tussen man en vrou in Hooglied besing tot by een van die
skoonste gedigte wat ooit in mensetaal geskryf is oor die naasteliefde
(agape) (1 Kor. 13). Verstommend is die boeke van 'n eenvoudige visserman,
Johannes, nl. Die Evangelie van Johannes, die briewe van Johannes en die
Openbaring. Kritici wat dit aan 'n 2e eeuse Gnostiese skrywer wou toeskryf
het hard op die neus geval toe 'n klein stukkie papirus in Egipte met 4
verse van die Joh-Evangelie daarop ontdek is - gedateer tussen 90 en 110nC!;
sy boeke is van die bes gestruktureerde boeke in die Bybel en sy Logos-lied
oor die Woord wat mens geword het (Joh 1), weereens een van die skoonste
stukkie poësie wat ooit geskryf is (bloot taalkundig beoordeel). Natuurlik
moes Johannes 'n buitengewoon hoë intellek gehad het - dit is duidelik uit
sy werk! - maar wat ewe duidelik is, is dat geen ongeleerde persoon tot werk
van sulke literêre waarde in staat kon wees, sonder buitengewone inspirasie
nie.
Dieselfde Heilige Gees wat mense gedryf het om te preek en te skryf,
dieselfde Heilige Gees het mense gelei om die hand van die Gees te erken in
wat geskryf is en wat in die kanon hoort en wat nie. Baie meer is
geopenbaar as wat op skrif gestel is (vgl. Joh. 20:30 en 21:25). Baie meer
is op skrif gestel as wat in die Bybel opgeneem is. Die Heilige Gees werk
nou nog in mense en, al sou die meeste Gereformeerde teoloë dalk nie met my
siening saamstem nie, ek glo dat daar steeds gelowiges is wat onder drywing
van die Gees woorde sê wat op dieselfde vlak as dié in die Byel is -
geinspireerde Woord van God!
Tog voel ek baie sterk daaroor dat die kanon afgesluit is. Die 66 boeke wat
in die Bybel opgeneem is, is meer as voldoende om ons alles te leer wat vir
ons verhouding met God nodig is.
Torreke.
"Katryn" wrote in message
news:f1brv1t5q6ljmj6sdrmtvae951f9v0fdjb@4ax.com...
> "Dom" skryf:
>
>> "Jim Again..." wrote
>> >> DIE BOEK VAN JASHER [Jasher = "Upright"]
>>> Die boek van Jasher is 'n belangrike en onmisbare geskrif wat
>>> betroubare feite en geskiedenis vanaf Adam tot Joshua bevat.
>>> Dit is een van die boeke wat verkeerdelik uit Die Bybel uitge-
>>> laat is, omdat dit akkuraat oorenstem met die ooreenkomstige
>>> Bybelboeke van sy tyd. In Die Bybel word daar dan ook ver-
>>> wys na die boek van Jasher.
>
> Die Jasher boek is 'n Midrash - 'n KOMMENTAAR dus.
> Volgens die woordeboek:
> "Any of a group of Jewish commentaries on the Hebrew Scriptures
> compiled between A.D. 400 and 1200 and based on exegesis, parable, and
> haggadic legend.
>
> [Hebrew midras, commentary, explanation, Midrash, from daras, to seek,
> study.]
> "
> Midrash (mid'räsh) [Heb.,=to examine, to investigate], verse by verse
> interpretation of Hebrew Scriptures, consisting of homily and
> exegesis, by Jewish teachers since about 400 B.C. Distinction is made
> between Midrash halakah, dealing with the legal portions of Scripture,
> and Midrash haggada, dealing with biblical lore. Midrashic exposition
> of both kinds appears throughout the Talmud. Individual midrashic
> commentaries were composed by rabbis after the 2d cent. A.D. up to the
> Middle Ages, and they were mostly of an aggadic nature, following the
> order of the scriptural text. Important among them are the Midrash
> Rabbah, a collection of commentaries on the Torah and the Five Scrolls
> (the Song of Songs, Esther, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes), and the
> Pesikta Midrashim, concerning the festivals. This body of rabbinic
> literature contains the earliest speculative thought in the Jewish
> tradition.
> Bibliography
>
> See H. L. Strack, Introduction to the Talmud and Midrash (1931, repr.
> 1969); L. Ginzberg, Legends of the Bible (1956); N. N. Glatzer, Hammer
> on the Rock (1962).
>
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109208 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109202] |
Fri, 24 February 2006 07:56 |
Dom
Boodskappe: 8
Geregistreer: February 2006
Karma: 0
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Junior Lid |
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"Jim Again
> Sover ek weet het die RKK daaroor besluit.
>
> Groete
>
> Jim
staan RKK vir Rooms Katolieke Kerk?
ek het 'n joodse vriend wat sê dit staan nie in die joodse bybel nie. soos
ek hom verstaan, het hulle net dieself boeke as ons ou testament. hy se dis
anners gerangskik.
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109210 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109189] |
Fri, 24 February 2006 09:11 |
Dom
Boodskappe: 8
Geregistreer: February 2006
Karma: 0
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Junior Lid |
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"Lukas Louw" wrote in message
news:%3oLf.1148$Zw.522@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Iemand erens weet seker hoekom die spesifieke boek nie ingesluit nie, en
> ek dink dat Jim Again in elk geval vir iemand moet vra of eers navorsing
> doen. My indruk van sy posts is dat hy maar basies ander mense se opinies
> gebruik en na-aap.............
hy lyk vir my slim. maar ek verstan nie hoekom hy se die RKK het besloet die
boek moeni innie bybel wees nie. my joodse vriend se dis nie in die jodse
bybel nie. ek dog die joodse kerk is die oudste.
> Paste hierdie kombinasie in google, en jy sal genoeg links kry om jou 'n
> ruk besig the hou:
tlink my jy dink eks lastag en dom
>
> Jasher exclude bible
>
> Lukas
>
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109211 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109153] |
Fri, 24 February 2006 09:49 |
Dom
Boodskappe: 8
Geregistreer: February 2006
Karma: 0
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Junior Lid |
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Eerstens : Let op na Mirjam en Aäron se reaksie en optrede
omdat Moses 'n 'Kusitiese vrou' gehad het. - Hulle het teen
Moses gespreek. Die vraag is : Waarom sou hulle dan teen
Moses spreek indien dit moontlik aanvaarbaar sou wees vir
'n Israeliet om met een van die kinders van Gam ('n ander
ras of etniese groep) te trou ? - Mirjam en Aäron was slegs
oningelig oor Moses se Kusitiese vrou, en het nie onmiddelik
besef dat dit slegs 'n politiese troue was nie.
my joodse vriend se mirjam het melats geword oomdat sy Moses teegeprat het.
ek verstan nie. hoekom het sy melats geword as dit reg was om hom tee te
prat oor swart vrou? my joods vriend se melats is velsiekte. tlyk my sy
het velsiekte gekry omdat sy nie van swart vel gehou het nie. ek dink dis
nogal slim van my. dink jy ook se. Jim Again is slim.
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109212 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109205] |
Fri, 24 February 2006 11:08 |
Dom
Boodskappe: 8
Geregistreer: February 2006
Karma: 0
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Junior Lid |
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Nou sal die Skrywer hier duidelik aantoon dat hierdie
Hofdienaar nie swart was nie, maar dat hy sonder twy-
fel 'n Israeliet (Blanke Persoon) was, wat in die rege-
ring van Kandacé gedien het. Ons het reeds bewys
dat Israel 'n Blanke volk was.
1) Die Wet en die Profete het slegs oor Israel gehan-
del en was slegs vir die volk Israel bedoel. Slegs Is-
raeliete het die Wet en die Profete ontvang en as be-
sitting gehad, want geen ander volk het dit besit nie.
Hierdie Hofdienaar kon net 'n Israeliet ('n Blanke)
wees, want :
Eerstens kon hy lees ! En hy het (besit) die boekrol
van die Profete van Israel by hom.
Ja, hy lees nogal uit die Profeet Jesaja (wat hy waar
kry ?). Verder was hierdie Hofdienaar op pad na Jeru-
salem om te gaan aanbid. Alleen wié het in Jerusalem
gaan aanbid ? - Ja, slegs Israeliete (verál diegene wat
uit Jesaja lees) het daar gaan aanbid.
ek het een aand op tv gesien. daars swart mense in errtria wat se hulle is
jode. daars 'n klein tempel wat hulle met soldate oppas. hulle se moses se
ark is daarbinne. niemand mag in die tempel ingaan nie net die priester.
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109216 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109211] |
Fri, 24 February 2006 12:30 |
Torreke
Boodskappe: 1165
Geregistreer: April 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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'n Kostelike waarneming! - Mirjam wat 'n velsiekte gekry het omdat sy
omgekrap was oor Moses se swart vrou! - ek het dit nog nooit voorheen so
gesien nie.
Ek het gemerk dat Jim Again jou met meer respek behandel as wat hy my
behandel het. Ek wonder natuurlik ook, soos hy, waarom jy jouself "Dom"
noem, maar kon nie help om raak te sien dat hy jou in sy antwoord as "D"
aanspreek en selfs "Groete" onderaan toevoeg nie.
Jy moet maar versigtig wees, al dink jy hy is slim en sal met jou saamstem.
As jy meer sulke "slimmighede" soos hierdie een uitstal, gaan hy jou begin
vloek en skel en name noem. Trouens, ek sal gladnie verbaas wees as hy jou
sommer met sy volgende antwoord skel nie, want ek dink jou verwysing in 'n
ander pos na jou "Joodse vriend" en sy "Joodse Bybel" wat nie die boek
Jasher in het nie, gaan hom ook irriteer. As jy nie met sy rassisme
saamstem nie, vloek hy jou!
Sterkte vir jou gesprek met hom. Glo my jy gaan dit nodig kry.
Torreke.
"Dom" skryf in boodskap news:dtmjuq$68s$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
>
> Eerstens : Let op na Mirjam en Aäron se reaksie en optrede
> omdat Moses 'n 'Kusitiese vrou' gehad het. - Hulle het teen
> Moses gespreek. Die vraag is : Waarom sou hulle dan teen
> Moses spreek indien dit moontlik aanvaarbaar sou wees vir
> 'n Israeliet om met een van die kinders van Gam ('n ander
> ras of etniese groep) te trou ? - Mirjam en Aäron was slegs
> oningelig oor Moses se Kusitiese vrou, en het nie onmiddelik
> besef dat dit slegs 'n politiese troue was nie.
>
> my joodse vriend se mirjam het melats geword oomdat sy Moses teegeprat
> het. ek verstan nie. hoekom het sy melats geword as dit reg was om hom
> tee te prat oor swart vrou? my joods vriend se melats is velsiekte. tlyk
> my sy het velsiekte gekry omdat sy nie van swart vel gehou het nie. ek
> dink dis nogal slim van my. dink jy ook se. Jim Again is slim.
>
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109220 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109216] |
Fri, 24 February 2006 14:45 |
Torreke
Boodskappe: 1165
Geregistreer: April 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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>> tlyk my sy het velsiekte gekry omdat sy nie van swart vel gehou het nie.
Nadat ek klaar lekker gelag het...
Hoe meer ek daaroor nagedink het, hoe meer het ek tot die gevolgtrekking
gekom dat jy reg het, Dom.
Waarom sou God haar anders met dié velsiekte getref het?
Toe gaan lees ek weer Numeri 12. Opmerklik dat die Bybel sê sy was melaats
"soos sneeu" - dus sneewit!
Ons het hier waarskynlik met 'n stukkie goddelike ironie en spot te doen.
Sy is so begaan oor haar wit vel en die ander een se swart vel... Sy dink
haar wit vel is beter - nou maar goed - dan maak God haar vel wit -
sneeuwit! Sy wil eintlik hê Moses se vrou moet uit die laer weggejaag word
omdat sy swart is, nou moet sy wat Mirjam is, uit die laer uit omdat sy
"wit" is!!!
Ek glo nie die storie van 2 vrouens met wie Moses getroud was nie. Daar is
regtig geen grondige rede om te glo dat die "Kusitiese vrou" waarvan hier in
Num 12 gepraat word, iemand anders as Sippora is, die vrou met wie Moses
getrou het nadat hy uit Egipte gevlug het (Ex. 2). Sippora se vader was
"priester van Midian", maar ek weet nie of daar ooit na hom as "'n
Midianiet" verwys word nie; so sy volksverband word nie genoem nie! Maar al
word hy ook êrens wel "'n Midianiet" genoem terwyl hy eintlik 'n Kusiet was,
Jim Again het mooi vir ons uitgewys dat Moses in Exodus 2:19 "'n Egiptenaar"
genoem word, terwyl hy eintlik 'n Israeliet was.
Torreke
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109222 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109211] |
Fri, 24 February 2006 15:23 |
Jim Again
Boodskappe: 246
Geregistreer: January 2007
Karma: 0
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Nee, Dom
Ek dink sy het melaats geword omdat sy Moses
(valslik) beskuldig het van iets wat hy nie verkeerd
gedoen het nie, naamlik dat hy nie fisiese kontak
met sy Kussitiese vrou (Adoniah) gehad het nie, en
dat hy ook NIE seksueel met haar verkeer het nie,
want soos daar staan, het Moses die wet van God
gehoorsaam deur nie verbastering te bevorder nie.
My Joodse vriend stem ook hieroor saam met my :-)
Jim
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109224 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109220] |
Fri, 24 February 2006 16:30 |
Waaierstertmuis
Boodskappe: 1592
Geregistreer: October 2001
Karma: 0
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"Torreke" skryf:
>>> tlyk my sy het velsiekte gekry omdat sy nie van swart vel gehou het nie.
>
> Nadat ek klaar lekker gelag het...
>
> Hoe meer ek daaroor nagedink het, hoe meer het ek tot die gevolgtrekking
> gekom dat jy reg het, Dom.
LOL. Hoe dit ookal sy, ek onthou toe 'n gedig wat ek eens op 'n tyd
gelees het, en moes dit net gou eers gaan soek. :)
Dit kom van:
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/poems/90/miriam_moses.htm l
Miriam and Moses
"My God, Moses, the girl is black!"
The end of Miriam's attack
Made Moses wince and set his jaw
Like stone to guard his tongue with law,
And hold his peace, if somehow love
Might be reborn. There was more dove
In Moses than the hawk. Her words,
Like wolves upon the hapless herds
Of Midian, had almost ripped
The meekness from his heart and stripped
Him of the deep respect he'd known
For Miriam. Almost a stone
Now, Moses watched his sister's face,
And feared, lest pedigree and race
Had eaten, like a leprosy
Of pride, the root of sympathy,
And killed the power to confess,
And serve as Israel's prophetess.
Two years Zipporah had been dead.
And though she was not born or bred
A Hebrew lass, she looked like one.
Perhaps too swarthy in the sun
Some said. But few denied that she
Was strong and helped her husband be
The greatest man in Israel.
None doubted Moses loved her well.
Now she was gone, and in her place
The great man Moses turned his face
To love a Cushite slave. He shocked
All Israel. And while some mocked,
He married her and made her free,
And said, "She will be wife to me.
Zipporah came from Midian,
The Cushite from the Land of Sun.
God made them love himself, then me;
There is here no idolatry."
But Miriam seemed singed with hell:
"Are there no maids in Israel!
And is our own tribe so unfit
That you should turn your face and spit
On all the widows in the land
And offer up your noble hand
To foreigners? Has not the clan
Of Levi any wives a man
Like you could love or tolerate?
Or, Moses, do you really hate
Your own, to raid a Cushite shack?
My God, Moses, the girl is black!"
The thought flashed over Moses' mind:
This is not Miriam, the kind,
And gentle prophetess. Oh, she
Was strong, but animosity
Was not the way her strength would show.
And then she gave another blow,
And stunned her brother once again:
"Do you think you're the only man
Who hears the Lord in Israel?
When God has plans does he not tell
To me as well, and Aaron too,
What he designs and plans to do?"
The knuckles of his hand turned white
Around his rod, and all the might
Of Moses' meekness ruled his heart,
Until the silence broke apart
With heaven's voice: "Come out you three
Before the tent. Confer with me,
And we will have a reckoning."
And as they came before the King,
The Lord descended in a cloud,
And stood with glory for a shroud,
And said to Miriam, "Stand forth
With Aaron now and hear the worth
Of murmuring against the friend
Of God. There is a sudden end
For pride in priest and prophet both.
Beware, for I am God, and loath
To let my friend be vilified
For long. Do you not know I hide
My plans from prophets in a dream:
They are not always what they seem.
Not so with Moses, Miriam,
All of the words I speak to him
Are mouth to mouth and clear as day,
And he knows everything I say.
Why were you not afraid to mock
The faithful shepherd of my flock?"
And suddenly the cloud was gone,
And Aaron looked, and saw upon
The skin of Miriam, as white
As melting snow, the dreaded sight
Of leprosy. And Aaron turned,
"Have mercy Moses, we have learned
Our lesson well. Let her not be
Among the living dead. For we
Are old, and do not always say
What we approve. Now, brother, pray
For her."
Before the words were out
Of Aaron's mouth there was no doubt
What Moses meant to do. He knelt
Beside the rotting flesh and felt
A wave of pity break behind
His eyes and flood his face with tears,
And heave his chest for all the years
That he had known his sister's joy,
Since he was just a little boy.
She pressed her forehead into him,
And heard him say, "I love you Mim.
It's only right, you know, that I
Should hold you near me now and try
To save your life the way you saved
Me more than once, because you braved
The river glades and made the ark
To carry me with pitch and bark
Above the flood of Pharaoh's wrath.
And many times along the path
For eighty years now you have raised
Me up with songs, and I have praised
The Lord for your prophetic gift.
Forbid that there should be a rift
Between us in the evening of
Our lives; I feel the same deep love
For you today I felt beside the sea
When you sang out the victory
Of God, and led the massive choir:
Ten thousand women full of fire!
Oh, Miriam! Has not our God
Been good to us! You see this rod?
It's been a snake, and eaten three!
It's beckoned frogs and split the sea.
Now, Miriam, I'm going to pray."
"There's something first I'd like to say,
I'm sorry, Moses. What I said
About your wife was wrong. Your bed
Is pure. Of all the women I
Have taught in Israel, they fly
Beneath the heights of faith and love
Where she's at home just like a dove
On wind. And it is no surprise
That you should choose not Hebrew eyes
Or Hebrew skin, but one who loves
Your God and soars on wind with doves.
It was an ugly thing to say,
Perhaps the leprosy should stay."
"I think not, Miriam! Let's pray:
O God, I simply ask today
That you would heal my sister's life;
Remove the remnants of our strife.
Create a bond between my wife
And Miriam, and let no knife
From earth or hell divide with pride,
Or shame."
And so the Lord replied,
"I give you what your love has seen:
In seven days she will be clean."
Today let fire from candle three
Consume all family enmity.
Let all repent and all forgive.
Let Miriam and Moses live.
And as we sing the birth of Christ,
Think well why He was sacrificed.
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109226 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109207] |
Fri, 24 February 2006 16:31 |
Waaierstertmuis
Boodskappe: 1592
Geregistreer: October 2001
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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"Torreke" skryf:
> Aan die ander kant is daar natuurlik die skeptici en ateiste wat soos
> Daneile hulle teen die menslike element in die bybel blindstaar en dit dan
> maar vir 'n blote menslike geskrif aansien.
Ugh - ek is nou sommer diep in die moeilikheid - moes al laaankal
gegaan het, maar jou boodskappe is werklik baie interessant en daar is
heelwat om te herkou in. Wil so graag meer skryf en vra, maar ai. :)
Wou net gou sê (aangesien ekself seker ook onder daardie mense wat jy
hierbo beskryf val) :)
Dit is wel waar, maar daar is darem ook 'n groep van ons wat verstaan
dat geloof meer as net dit is, en darem kan onderskei tussen mense wat
die bybel aanbid en die wat God aanbid. :)
Een van my geliefkoosde aanhalings wat ek altyd gebruik as iemand my
beskuldig van te skepties wees is deur daardie wyse Skot Robert G.
Morrison gesê het, toe hy Thomas Reid (1710-1796), was:
"If a skeptic should build his skepticism upon this foundation, that
all our reasoning, and judging powers are fallacious in their nature,
or should resolve at least to withhold assent until it be proved that
they are not; it would be impossible by argument to beat him out of
his strong hold, and he must be left to enjoy his skepticism."
:))
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109227 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109224] |
Fri, 24 February 2006 18:19 |
Liewe Lulu
Boodskappe: 37
Geregistreer: September 2000
Karma: 0
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Volle Lid |
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Dankie vir 'n netjiese stukkie poësie wat nogal die essensie mooi raakvat.
Die gedeelte van Sippora wat al dood was kan ek nie onthou nie, maar êrens
wil ek my so-iets begin herinner. Sal weer bietjie moet gaan soek. Dit sou
baie sin maak as Sippora al dood was en hy toe 'n tweede vrou geneem het, 'n
swart vrou, wat Mirjam ontstel het.
Torreke
"Katryn" skryf in boodskap news:is9uv1t5k2idagbism9tv7si45ur8828sm@4ax.com...
> "Torreke" skryf:
>
>>>> tlyk my sy het velsiekte gekry omdat sy nie van swart vel gehou het
nie.
>>
>> Nadat ek klaar lekker gelag het...
>>
>> Hoe meer ek daaroor nagedink het, hoe meer het ek tot die gevolgtrekking
>> gekom dat jy reg het, Dom.
>
> LOL. Hoe dit ookal sy, ek onthou toe 'n gedig wat ek eens op 'n tyd
> gelees het, en moes dit net gou eers gaan soek. :)
>
> Dit kom van:
> http://www.desiringgod.org/library/poems/90/miriam_moses.htm l
>
> Miriam and Moses
>
> "My God, Moses, the girl is black!"
> The end of Miriam's attack
> Made Moses wince and set his jaw
> Like stone to guard his tongue with law,
> And hold his peace, if somehow love
> Might be reborn. There was more dove
> In Moses than the hawk. Her words,
> Like wolves upon the hapless herds
> Of Midian, had almost ripped
> The meekness from his heart and stripped
> Him of the deep respect he'd known
> For Miriam. Almost a stone
> Now, Moses watched his sister's face,
> And feared, lest pedigree and race
> Had eaten, like a leprosy
> Of pride, the root of sympathy,
> And killed the power to confess,
> And serve as Israel's prophetess.
>
> Two years Zipporah had been dead.
> And though she was not born or bred
> A Hebrew lass, she looked like one.
> Perhaps too swarthy in the sun
> Some said. But few denied that she
> Was strong and helped her husband be
> The greatest man in Israel.
> None doubted Moses loved her well.
> Now she was gone, and in her place
> The great man Moses turned his face
> To love a Cushite slave. He shocked
> All Israel. And while some mocked,
> He married her and made her free,
> And said, "She will be wife to me.
> Zipporah came from Midian,
> The Cushite from the Land of Sun.
> God made them love himself, then me;
> There is here no idolatry."
>
> But Miriam seemed singed with hell:
> "Are there no maids in Israel!
> And is our own tribe so unfit
> That you should turn your face and spit
> On all the widows in the land
> And offer up your noble hand
> To foreigners? Has not the clan
> Of Levi any wives a man
> Like you could love or tolerate?
> Or, Moses, do you really hate
> Your own, to raid a Cushite shack?
> My God, Moses, the girl is black!"
>
> The thought flashed over Moses' mind:
> This is not Miriam, the kind,
> And gentle prophetess. Oh, she
> Was strong, but animosity
> Was not the way her strength would show.
>
> And then she gave another blow,
> And stunned her brother once again:
> "Do you think you're the only man
> Who hears the Lord in Israel?
> When God has plans does he not tell
> To me as well, and Aaron too,
> What he designs and plans to do?"
>
> The knuckles of his hand turned white
> Around his rod, and all the might
> Of Moses' meekness ruled his heart,
> Until the silence broke apart
> With heaven's voice: "Come out you three
> Before the tent. Confer with me,
> And we will have a reckoning."
> And as they came before the King,
> The Lord descended in a cloud,
> And stood with glory for a shroud,
> And said to Miriam, "Stand forth
> With Aaron now and hear the worth
> Of murmuring against the friend
> Of God. There is a sudden end
> For pride in priest and prophet both.
> Beware, for I am God, and loath
> To let my friend be vilified
> For long. Do you not know I hide
> My plans from prophets in a dream:
> They are not always what they seem.
> Not so with Moses, Miriam,
> All of the words I speak to him
> Are mouth to mouth and clear as day,
> And he knows everything I say.
> Why were you not afraid to mock
> The faithful shepherd of my flock?"
>
> And suddenly the cloud was gone,
> And Aaron looked, and saw upon
> The skin of Miriam, as white
> As melting snow, the dreaded sight
> Of leprosy. And Aaron turned,
> "Have mercy Moses, we have learned
> Our lesson well. Let her not be
> Among the living dead. For we
> Are old, and do not always say
> What we approve. Now, brother, pray
> For her."
>
> Before the words were out
> Of Aaron's mouth there was no doubt
> What Moses meant to do. He knelt
> Beside the rotting flesh and felt
> A wave of pity break behind
> His eyes and flood his face with tears,
> And heave his chest for all the years
> That he had known his sister's joy,
> Since he was just a little boy.
> She pressed her forehead into him,
> And heard him say, "I love you Mim.
> It's only right, you know, that I
> Should hold you near me now and try
> To save your life the way you saved
> Me more than once, because you braved
> The river glades and made the ark
> To carry me with pitch and bark
> Above the flood of Pharaoh's wrath.
> And many times along the path
> For eighty years now you have raised
> Me up with songs, and I have praised
> The Lord for your prophetic gift.
> Forbid that there should be a rift
> Between us in the evening of
> Our lives; I feel the same deep love
> For you today I felt beside the sea
> When you sang out the victory
> Of God, and led the massive choir:
> Ten thousand women full of fire!
> Oh, Miriam! Has not our God
> Been good to us! You see this rod?
> It's been a snake, and eaten three!
> It's beckoned frogs and split the sea.
> Now, Miriam, I'm going to pray."
>
> "There's something first I'd like to say,
> I'm sorry, Moses. What I said
> About your wife was wrong. Your bed
> Is pure. Of all the women I
> Have taught in Israel, they fly
> Beneath the heights of faith and love
> Where she's at home just like a dove
> On wind. And it is no surprise
> That you should choose not Hebrew eyes
> Or Hebrew skin, but one who loves
> Your God and soars on wind with doves.
> It was an ugly thing to say,
> Perhaps the leprosy should stay."
>
> "I think not, Miriam! Let's pray:
> O God, I simply ask today
> That you would heal my sister's life;
> Remove the remnants of our strife.
> Create a bond between my wife
> And Miriam, and let no knife
> From earth or hell divide with pride,
> Or shame."
>
> And so the Lord replied,
> "I give you what your love has seen:
> In seven days she will be clean."
>
> Today let fire from candle three
> Consume all family enmity.
> Let all repent and all forgive.
> Let Miriam and Moses live.
> And as we sing the birth of Christ,
> Think well why He was sacrificed.
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109228 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109226] |
Fri, 24 February 2006 18:30 |
Liewe Lulu
Boodskappe: 37
Geregistreer: September 2000
Karma: 0
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Volle Lid |
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Skepties wees is een ding, ongeloof 'n ander! Ek dink nou aan die man wat
by geleentheid vir Jesus gesê het: Ek glo, Here, kom my ongeloof te hulp.
Die mens wat sê dat hy glo sonder dat daar twyfel is, mislei homself en
ander.
Maar as ek bv oor die bestaan van God dink, dan kom ek telkens tot die besef
dat die kanse dat God is, is meer as 'n biljoen teen een.
En die feit dat die Bybel so menslik is, en gebreke in het omdat dit deur
feilbare mense geskryf is, mense wat getuig oor hulle en ander se verhouding
met God, hulle oorwinnings en ook hulle mislukkings, maak dit soveel meer
geloofwaardig as 'n boek in mensetaal wat op volmaaktheid aanspraak maak.
Ek hoop jy sal verskoon dat ek hier halt roep. Ek is rêrig bietjie moeg en
daar's klein kindertjies in die huis - hulle is suiwer blank! - wat ek moet
help versorg.
Groete
Torreke
"Katryn" skryf in boodskap news:dlcuv1pk5kjrqodliifh9io0nn1epdagvn@4ax.com...
> "Torreke" skryf:
>
>> Aan die ander kant is daar natuurlik die skeptici en ateiste wat soos
>> Daneile hulle teen die menslike element in die bybel blindstaar en dit dan
>> maar vir 'n blote menslike geskrif aansien.
>
> Ugh - ek is nou sommer diep in die moeilikheid - moes al laaankal
> gegaan het, maar jou boodskappe is werklik baie interessant en daar is
> heelwat om te herkou in. Wil so graag meer skryf en vra, maar ai. :)
>
> Wou net gou sê (aangesien ekself seker ook onder daardie mense wat jy
> hierbo beskryf val) :)
> Dit is wel waar, maar daar is darem ook 'n groep van ons wat verstaan
> dat geloof meer as net dit is, en darem kan onderskei tussen mense wat
> die bybel aanbid en die wat God aanbid. :)
>
> Een van my geliefkoosde aanhalings wat ek altyd gebruik as iemand my
> beskuldig van te skepties wees is deur daardie wyse Skot Robert G.
> Morrison gesê het, toe hy Thomas Reid (1710-1796), was:
> "If a skeptic should build his skepticism upon this foundation, that
> all our reasoning, and judging powers are fallacious in their nature,
> or should resolve at least to withhold assent until it be proved that
> they are not; it would be impossible by argument to beat him out of
> his strong hold, and he must be left to enjoy his skepticism."
>
> :))
>
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109232 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109227] |
Sat, 25 February 2006 05:40 |
Torreke
Boodskappe: 1165
Geregistreer: April 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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Kon tot dusver geen getuienis vind dat Sippora al dood was nie. Indien daar
nie sulke getuienis in die Bybel is nie, bly een van 2 moontlikhede oor: (1)
gaan van die veronderstelling uit dat Sippora al dood was, of (2) aanvaar
dat Sippora, al was haar pa die priester van Midian, in werklikheid 'n
Kusiet - 'n swart vrou! - was.
"Torreke" skryf in boodskap news:dtnio4$i7r$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> Dankie vir 'n netjiese stukkie poësie wat nogal die essensie mooi raakvat.
> Die gedeelte van Sippora wat al dood was kan ek nie onthou nie, maar êrens
> wil ek my so-iets begin herinner. Sal weer bietjie moet gaan soek. Dit
> sou
> baie sin maak as Sippora al dood was en hy toe 'n tweede vrou geneem het,
> 'n
> swart vrou, wat Mirjam ontstel het.
>
> Torreke
>
> "Katryn" wrote in message
> news:is9uv1t5k2idagbism9tv7si45ur8828sm@4ax.com...
>> "Torreke" skryf:
>>>> > tlyk my sy het velsiekte gekry omdat sy nie van swart vel gehou het
> nie.
>>>
>>> Nadat ek klaar lekker gelag het...
>>>
>>> Hoe meer ek daaroor nagedink het, hoe meer het ek tot die gevolgtrekking
>>> gekom dat jy reg het, Dom.
>> LOL. Hoe dit ookal sy, ek onthou toe 'n gedig wat ek eens op 'n tyd
>> gelees het, en moes dit net gou eers gaan soek. :)
>> Dit kom van:
>> http://www.desiringgod.org/library/poems/90/miriam_moses.htm l
>> Miriam and Moses
>> "My God, Moses, the girl is black!"
>> The end of Miriam's attack
>> Made Moses wince and set his jaw
>> Like stone to guard his tongue with law,
>> And hold his peace, if somehow love
>> Might be reborn. There was more dove
>> In Moses than the hawk. Her words,
>> Like wolves upon the hapless herds
>> Of Midian, had almost ripped
>> The meekness from his heart and stripped
>> Him of the deep respect he'd known
>> For Miriam. Almost a stone
>> Now, Moses watched his sister's face,
>> And feared, lest pedigree and race
>> Had eaten, like a leprosy
>> Of pride, the root of sympathy,
>> And killed the power to confess,
>> And serve as Israel's prophetess.
>> Two years Zipporah had been dead.
>> And though she was not born or bred
>> A Hebrew lass, she looked like one.
>> Perhaps too swarthy in the sun
>> Some said. But few denied that she
>> Was strong and helped her husband be
>> The greatest man in Israel.
>> None doubted Moses loved her well.
>> Now she was gone, and in her place
>> The great man Moses turned his face
>> To love a Cushite slave. He shocked
>> All Israel. And while some mocked,
>> He married her and made her free,
>> And said, "She will be wife to me.
>> Zipporah came from Midian,
>> The Cushite from the Land of Sun.
>> God made them love himself, then me;
>> There is here no idolatry."
>> But Miriam seemed singed with hell:
>> "Are there no maids in Israel!
>> And is our own tribe so unfit
>> That you should turn your face and spit
>> On all the widows in the land
>> And offer up your noble hand
>> To foreigners? Has not the clan
>> Of Levi any wives a man
>> Like you could love or tolerate?
>> Or, Moses, do you really hate
>> Your own, to raid a Cushite shack?
>> My God, Moses, the girl is black!"
>> The thought flashed over Moses' mind:
>> This is not Miriam, the kind,
>> And gentle prophetess. Oh, she
>> Was strong, but animosity
>> Was not the way her strength would show.
>> And then she gave another blow,
>> And stunned her brother once again:
>> "Do you think you're the only man
>> Who hears the Lord in Israel?
>> When God has plans does he not tell
>> To me as well, and Aaron too,
>> What he designs and plans to do?"
>> The knuckles of his hand turned white
>> Around his rod, and all the might
>> Of Moses' meekness ruled his heart,
>> Until the silence broke apart
>> With heaven's voice: "Come out you three
>> Before the tent. Confer with me,
>> And we will have a reckoning."
>> And as they came before the King,
>> The Lord descended in a cloud,
>> And stood with glory for a shroud,
>> And said to Miriam, "Stand forth
>> With Aaron now and hear the worth
>> Of murmuring against the friend
>> Of God. There is a sudden end
>> For pride in priest and prophet both.
>> Beware, for I am God, and loath
>> To let my friend be vilified
>> For long. Do you not know I hide
>> My plans from prophets in a dream:
>> They are not always what they seem.
>> Not so with Moses, Miriam,
>> All of the words I speak to him
>> Are mouth to mouth and clear as day,
>> And he knows everything I say.
>> Why were you not afraid to mock
>> The faithful shepherd of my flock?"
>> And suddenly the cloud was gone,
>> And Aaron looked, and saw upon
>> The skin of Miriam, as white
>> As melting snow, the dreaded sight
>> Of leprosy. And Aaron turned,
>> "Have mercy Moses, we have learned
>> Our lesson well. Let her not be
>> Among the living dead. For we
>> Are old, and do not always say
>> What we approve. Now, brother, pray
>> For her."
>> Before the words were out
>> Of Aaron's mouth there was no doubt
>> What Moses meant to do. He knelt
>> Beside the rotting flesh and felt
>> A wave of pity break behind
>> His eyes and flood his face with tears,
>> And heave his chest for all the years
>> That he had known his sister's joy,
>> Since he was just a little boy.
>> She pressed her forehead into him,
>> And heard him say, "I love you Mim.
>> It's only right, you know, that I
>> Should hold you near me now and try
>> To save your life the way you saved
>> Me more than once, because you braved
>> The river glades and made the ark
>> To carry me with pitch and bark
>> Above the flood of Pharaoh's wrath.
>> And many times along the path
>> For eighty years now you have raised
>> Me up with songs, and I have praised
>> The Lord for your prophetic gift.
>> Forbid that there should be a rift
>> Between us in the evening of
>> Our lives; I feel the same deep love
>> For you today I felt beside the sea
>> When you sang out the victory
>> Of God, and led the massive choir:
>> Ten thousand women full of fire!
>> Oh, Miriam! Has not our God
>> Been good to us! You see this rod?
>> It's been a snake, and eaten three!
>> It's beckoned frogs and split the sea.
>> Now, Miriam, I'm going to pray."
>> "There's something first I'd like to say,
>> I'm sorry, Moses. What I said
>> About your wife was wrong. Your bed
>> Is pure. Of all the women I
>> Have taught in Israel, they fly
>> Beneath the heights of faith and love
>> Where she's at home just like a dove
>> On wind. And it is no surprise
>> That you should choose not Hebrew eyes
>> Or Hebrew skin, but one who loves
>> Your God and soars on wind with doves.
>> It was an ugly thing to say,
>> Perhaps the leprosy should stay."
>> "I think not, Miriam! Let's pray:
>> O God, I simply ask today
>> That you would heal my sister's life;
>> Remove the remnants of our strife.
>> Create a bond between my wife
>> And Miriam, and let no knife
>> From earth or hell divide with pride,
>> Or shame."
>> And so the Lord replied,
>> "I give you what your love has seen:
>> In seven days she will be clean."
>> Today let fire from candle three
>> Consume all family enmity.
>> Let all repent and all forgive.
>> Let Miriam and Moses live.
>> And as we sing the birth of Christ,
>> Think well why He was sacrificed.
>
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109233 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109216] |
Sat, 25 February 2006 06:34 |
Torreke
Boodskappe: 1165
Geregistreer: April 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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"Torreke" <
>
> Ek het gemerk dat Jim Again jou met meer respek behandel as wat hy my
> behandel het. Ek wonder natuurlik ook, soos hy, waarom jy jouself "Dom"
> noem, maar kon nie help om raak te sien dat hy jou in sy antwoord as "D"
> aanspreek en selfs "Groete" onderaan toevoeg nie.
> Jy moet maar versigtig wees, al dink jy hy is slim en sal met jou saamstem.
> As jy meer sulke "slimmighede" soos hierdie een uitstal, gaan hy jou begin
> vloek en skel en name noem. Trouens, ek sal gladnie verbaas wees as hy jou
> sommer met sy volgende antwoord skel nie, want ek dink jou verwysing in 'n
> ander pos na jou "Joodse vriend" en sy "Joodse Bybel" wat nie die boek
> Jasher in het nie, gaan hom ook irriteer. As jy nie met sy rassisme
> saamstem nie, vloek hy jou!
Het jy gesien dat hy al klaar meer vrymoedig word. Hy noem jou nie meer "D" nie, hy noem jou nou "Dom". Dit gaan nie lank vat voordat hy "Dom" verander na "Imbesiel" of "Onnosel" of "Moroon" of "Dwaas" nie. Ek dink daar is 'n paar redes waarom dit nog nie gebeur het nie:
- Jy het hom onkant gevang met jou skuilnaam - "rare naam" het hy dit genoem.
- Hy het tot dusver so gekonsentreer daarop om name vir teoloë uit te dink, "addergeslag", "slang-ogies", ens. dat hy op hierdie oomblik 'n bietjie sonder woorde gelaat is.
- Sy gewete is dalk tog nie heeltemal toegeskroei nie; hy het telkens sy woorde getemper wanneer ek hom vra of dit die Gees van God is wat so praat.
- Aan die ander kant kan dit ook wees dat hy sy woorde getel het omdat hy weet dat almal, selfs sy rassistiese boeties soos Otterkop, kon sien dat sy skel- en vloektaal nie ooreenstem met wat die Bybel leer oor die gedrag van 'n Christen nie.
Hy sal nog vir jou vertel van 'n luiperd wat nie sy kolle kan verander nie en 'n Kusiet nie sy vel nie. 'n Jakkals verander inderdaad van haar maar nie van streke nie. Gee hom genoeg kans om sy woordeskat agter mekaar te kry, dan trek hy los op jou.
Kom ek vertel jou nog iets oor hierdie man, as jy dit nie alreeds self agter gekom het nie:
As hy nie vir jou 'n antwoorde het nie, dan doen hy een van vier dinge, of gebruik enige kombinasie van die vier:
1) Hy ignoreer die argument.
- Jy het vir hom gesê dat jou Joodse vriend sê die boek van Jasher is nie in die Joodse Bybel nie. Ek kan jou verseker dit is nie. Terloops dit word gewoonlik "die Hebreeuse Bybel" genoem. Lukas Louw en Katryn het skakels na webbladsy verskaf wat genoegsaam aantoon dat die Rabbis van Jamnia, +- 90 na Christus, bepaal het watter boeke in die Hebreeuse Bybel opgeneem moet word, nie die Rooms Katolieke Kerk soos Jim vloekende rassis gedink het nie - dat die Boek van Jasher eers in die Middeleeue geskryf is, dus lank nadat die Ou Testament afgesluit is. As Jim vloekende rassis vir 'n oomblik sou nadink oor sy eie argumente, nl. dat die Jode rassiste was en deur God beveel was om rassiste te wees, waarom het die Rabbis van Jamnia die Boek van Jasher wat so 'n mooi verduideliking gee vir Moses se swart vrou, dit uit die Bybel uitgelaat? Jim vloekende rassis ignoreer dit, want hy kan dit nie beantwoord nie, en dit pas nie sy rassisme nie.
- Netso ignoreer hy die duidelike lyn wat jy getrek het tussen Mirjam se probleem met 'n "swart vel" en die "wit" velsiekte wat sy kry. Hy het nogal vantevore vir ons vertel die Bybel verklaar homself, en tot 'n groot mate is hy reg. Maar as die antwoord voor sy oë binne dieselfde hoofstuk staan, ignoreer hy dit. Want as hy dit nie ignoreer nie, val sy hele rassistiese ideologie sy neus so plat soos die Kusiete s'n.
2) Soos 'n kind in die eerste 10 jaar van sy lewe, klou hy vas aan sy "speelding".
- Die Boek wat sy ideologie moet bewys, Jasher, is duidelik gediskrediteer, het nie in die Bybel se tyd bestaan nie, maar Jim vloekende rassis haal maar weer vir jou daaruit aan. Hy klou aan sy holruggeryde en gediskrediteerde stellings en leermeester, JW12, vas, want sy hele lewe sal in duie stort as hy dit moet opgee. En druk hom net so bietjie dan begin hy met die kinderagtige "is nie"-"is" speletjie wat my kinders (8 en 9 jaar onderskeidelik) speel, oortuig daarvan dat as hy die laaste een is wat sy sê inkry, dan het hy die stryery gewen.
3) Hy aap jou na.
-Hy't gehoor jy't 'n "Joodse vriend" wat vir jou vertel dat die Boek Jasher nie in die Bybel is nie, nou het hy skielik ook 'n Joodse vriend wat met hom saamstem en ondersteuning verleen aan sy kinderagtige en hardkoppige geklou aan die sg. Boek van Jasher. Hy't net so min 'n Joodse vriend as die man in die maan. Sy hele ideologie berus op na-aap en na-praat van ene JW12 en die onwetenskaplike Keellangs wat op Praag se webbladsye gepubliseer word.
4) En as jy hom genoeg irriteer, dan gaan hy oor tot vloek en skel, name noem, en "hou verby".
Ek kyk met belangstelling om te sien wat gaan met jou gebeur, Dom.
Torreke
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109283 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109153] |
Sun, 26 February 2006 18:49 |
Jim Again
Boodskappe: 246
Geregistreer: January 2007
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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DIE SAMARITAANSE VROU
Was (al) die Samaritane basters ? Nee. Die Bybel verklaar
dat daar ook verstrooide (verheidense) Israeliete onder hulle
was. En die Israeliete was Blankes (Adamiete).
Nota : Jakob was die Vader van die Twaalf Stamme van
Israel, daarom kan slegs Israeliete hulself met Jakob
identifiseer.
Christus is in Sígar, in Samaria, by die fontein van Jakob :
Joh. 4: 4-7 : "En Hy moes deur Samaría gaan. Hy kom toe
by 'n stad van Samaría wat Sígar genoem word, naby die
stuk grond wat Jakob aan sy seun Josef gegee het. En die
fontein van Jakob was daar. Jesus het toe, omdat Hy moeg
was van die reis, somaar by die fontein gaan sit. Dit was
omtrent die sesde uur. Daar kom 'n vrou uit Samaría om
water te skep. Jesus sê vir haar : Gee vir My water om te
drink..."
Die Samaritaanse vrou erken dat Jakob ook háár voorvader
is :
Joh. 4: 12 : "U is tog nie groter as ons vader Jakob nie, wat
die put aan ons gegee het en self daaruit gedrink het, en sy
seuns en sy vee ?"
Die berg Ebal en die berg Gerísim is beide geleë langs die
stad Sígar, en beide hierdie berge was plekke van belang
(gebruik vir offers en aanbidding) vir die Israeliete. Later het
die Samaritane (wat na bewering afkomstig was van 'n groep
Israeliete wat die Assiriese ballingskap vrygespring het) blyk-
baar die berg Gerísim as hulle plek van aanbidding gekies.
Joshua het ooreenkomstig Moses se bevel (soos van God ont-
vang) 'n altaar op die berg Ebal opgerig, waar die Israeliete ge-
reeld ge-offer en aanbid het :
Deut. 27: 6-7 : "Van ongekapte klippe moet jy die altaar van
die HERE jou God bou ; en jy moet daarop brandoffers bring
aan die HERE jou God. Ook moet jy dankoffers slag en daar
eet en vrolik wees voor die aangesig van die HERE jou God."
Die berg Ebal :
Jos. 8: 30-32 : "Toe het Josua 'n altaar gebou vir die HERE,
die God van Israel, op die berg Ebal, soos Moses, die kneg
van die HERE, die kinders van Israel beveel het, soos ge-
skrywe staan in die wetboek van Moses : 'n Altaar van on-
gekapte klippe waaroor geen yster geswaai is nie ; en dáár-
op het hulle aan die HERE brandoffers gebring en dankoffers
geslag. En daar het hy 'n afskrif van die wet van Moses op
die klippe geskrywe, wat hy geskrywe het voor die oë van
die kinders van Israel..."
Die berg Gerísim :
Jos. 8: 33 : "...terwyl die hele Israel met sy oudstes en die
opsigters en sy regters aan weerskante van die ark staan -
teenoor die Levitiese priesters, die draers van die verbonds-
ark van die HERE - die vreemdeling sowel as die kind van
die land : die een helfte daarvan teen die berg Gerísim en
die ander helfte daarvan teen die berg Ebal, soos Moses,
die kneg van die HERE, tevore bevel gegee het om die
volk van Israel te seën."
Die Samaritaanse vrou erken dat haar vaders (die Israeliete)
op daardie berg (Gerísim en/of Ebal) aanbid het :
Joh. 4: 20 : "Ons vaders het op hierdie berg aanbid, en julle
sê dat die plek waar ons behoort te aanbid, in Jerusalem is."
In daardie tyd het slegs Israeliete hulle Messias (die Christus)
verwag, en dus was hierdie Samaritaanse vrou 'n Israeliet :
Joh. 4: 25 : "Die vrou sê vir Hom : Ek weet dat die Messías
kom, Hy wat Christus genoem word. Wanneer Hy kom, sal
Hy ons alles verkondig." [Let Wel : Sy praat van "ons"].
Gevolgtrekking :
Die Samaritaanse vrou was heel logies 'n Israeliet. Ja, sy was
dus 'n blosende Adamiet, naamlik 'n Blanke. En die ander Sa-
maritane wat saam met haar was (die "ons") was dus óók Is-
raeliete.
JW12
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109326 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109283] |
Tue, 28 February 2006 09:24 |
Torreke
Boodskappe: 1165
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> DIE SAMARITAANSE VROU
> Was (al) die Samaritane basters ? Nee. Die Bybel verklaar
> dat daar ook verstrooide (verheidense) Israeliete onder hulle
> was.
Teksverwysing???
Joh. 4:9 " ... die Jode hou geen gemeenskap met die Samaritane nie."
> En die Israeliete was Blankes (Adamiete).
> Nota : Jakob was die Vader van die Twaalf Stamme van
> Israel, daarom kan slegs Israeliete hulself met Jakob
> identifiseer.
Mat. 10:5-6 "Jesus het hierdie twaalf uitgestuur en hulle bevel gegee en gesê: Moenie gaan op pad na die heidene nie, en moenie ingaan in 'n stad van die Samaritane nie; maar gaan liewer na die verlore skape van die huis van Israel"
> Christus is in Sígar, in Samaria, by die fontein van Jakob :
> Joh. 4: 4-7 : "En Hy moes deur Samaría gaan. Hy kom toe
> by 'n stad van Samaría wat Sígar genoem word, naby die
> stuk grond wat Jakob aan sy seun Josef gegee het. En die
> fontein van Jakob was daar. Jesus het toe, omdat Hy moeg
> was van die reis, somaar by die fontein gaan sit. Dit was
> omtrent die sesde uur. Daar kom 'n vrou uit Samaría om
> water te skep. Jesus sê vir haar : Gee vir My water om te
> drink..."
> Die Samaritaanse vrou erken dat Jakob ook háár voorvader
> is :
> Joh. 4: 12 : "U is tog nie groter as ons vader Jakob nie, wat
> die put aan ons gegee het en self daaruit gedrink het, en sy
> seuns en sy vee ?"
> Die berg Ebal en die berg Gerísim is beide geleë langs die
> stad Sígar, en beide hierdie berge was plekke van belang
> (gebruik vir offers en aanbidding) vir die Israeliete. Later het
> die Samaritane (wat na bewering afkomstig was van 'n groep
> Israeliete wat die Assiriese ballingskap vrygespring het) blyk-
> baar die berg Gerísim as hulle plek van aanbidding gekies.
> Joshua het ooreenkomstig Moses se bevel (soos van God ont-
> vang) 'n altaar op die berg Ebal opgerig, waar die Israeliete ge-
> reeld ge-offer en aanbid het :
> Deut. 27: 6-7 : "Van ongekapte klippe moet jy die altaar van
> die HERE jou God bou ; en jy moet daarop brandoffers bring
> aan die HERE jou God. Ook moet jy dankoffers slag en daar
> eet en vrolik wees voor die aangesig van die HERE jou God."
> Die berg Ebal :
> Jos. 8: 30-32 : "Toe het Josua 'n altaar gebou vir die HERE,
> die God van Israel, op die berg Ebal, soos Moses, die kneg
> van die HERE, die kinders van Israel beveel het, soos ge-
> skrywe staan in die wetboek van Moses : 'n Altaar van on-
> gekapte klippe waaroor geen yster geswaai is nie ; en dáár-
> op het hulle aan die HERE brandoffers gebring en dankoffers
> geslag. En daar het hy 'n afskrif van die wet van Moses op
> die klippe geskrywe, wat hy geskrywe het voor die oë van
> die kinders van Israel..."
> Die berg Gerísim :
> Jos. 8: 33 : "...terwyl die hele Israel met sy oudstes en die
> opsigters en sy regters aan weerskante van die ark staan -
> teenoor die Levitiese priesters, die draers van die verbonds-
> ark van die HERE - die vreemdeling sowel as die kind van
> die land : die een helfte daarvan teen die berg Gerísim en
> die ander helfte daarvan teen die berg Ebal, soos Moses,
> die kneg van die HERE, tevore bevel gegee het om die
> volk van Israel te seën."
> Die Samaritaanse vrou erken dat haar vaders (die Israeliete)
> op daardie berg (Gerísim en/of Ebal) aanbid het :
> Joh. 4: 20 : "Ons vaders het op hierdie berg aanbid, en julle
> sê dat die plek waar ons behoort te aanbid, in Jerusalem is."
2 Kon. 17:24: "En die koning van Assirië het uit Babel en uit Kuta en uit Awa en uit Hamat en Sefarvaim mense ingevoer en laat woon in die stede van Samaria, in die plek van die kinders van Israel: Hulle het Samaria in besit geneem en in sy stede gaan woon. En in die begin van hulle vestiging daar het hulle die HERE nie gevrees nie. Toe stuur die HERE leeus onder hulle, en dié het onder hulle sommige gedood." "Toe gee die koning van Assirië bevel en sê: Bring een van die priesters daarheen wat julle daarvandaan weggevoer het...dat hy hulle die verpligting teenoor die God van die land kan leer. En een van die priesters wat uit Samaria weggevoer is, het gekom en hom in Bet-el gevestig en hulle geleer hoe hulle die HERE moet vrees." "Hulle het die HERE gevrees en hulle eie gode gedien volgens die gebruik van die nasies waar hulle vandaan weggevoer is. Tot vandag toe hndel hulle volgens die vroeëre gebruike..."
Esra 4:1-3: "En toe die teëstanders van Juda en Benjamin hoor dat die ballinge 'n tempel bou vir die HERE, die God van Israel, het hulle aangekom na Serubbabel en na die familiehoofde en aan hulle gesê: Laat ons saam met julle bou, want net soos julle soek ons julle God, en aan Hom offer ons van die dae van Esar-Haddon af, die koning van Assirië, wat ons hierheen laat optrek het. Maar Serubbabel en Jesua en die ander familiehoofde van Israel het aan hulle gesê: Dit sal nie gaan dat julle saam met ons 'n huis vir onse God bou nie, maar ons alleen sal vir die HERE, die God van Israel, dit bou..."
> In daardie tyd het slegs Israeliete hulle Messias (die Christus)
> verwag, en dus was hierdie Samaritaanse vrou 'n Israeliet :
> Joh. 4: 25 : "Die vrou sê vir Hom : Ek weet dat die Messías
> kom, Hy wat Christus genoem word. Wanneer Hy kom, sal
> Hy ons alles verkondig." [Let Wel : Sy praat van "ons"].
Joh. 4:9 "En die Samaritaanse vrou sê vir Hom: Hoe is dit dat U wat 'n Jood is, van my vra om te drink terwyl ek 'n Samaritaanse vrou is? Want die Jode hou geen gemeenskap met die Samaritane nie."
> Gevolgtrekking :
> Die Samaritaanse vrou was heel logies 'n Israeliet. Ja, sy was
> dus 'n blosende Adamiet, naamlik 'n Blanke. En die ander Sa-
> maritane wat saam met haar was (die "ons") was dus óók Is-
> raeliete.
Joh. 4:22 "Julle aanbid wat julle nie weet nie; ons aanbid wat ons weet, want die saligheid is uit die Jode".
> JW12
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109353 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109326] |
Wed, 01 March 2006 21:58 |
Jim Again
Boodskappe: 246
Geregistreer: January 2007
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Nee, Libbie
Ek het nog nie hier 'n Bybelstudie oor "die Jode" hier gebring
nie, daarom verstaan niemand daardie punte nie.
Die term "Jode" in die Bybel is 'n wisselterm, en daarom het
dit hoofsaklik drie afsonderlike betekenisse :
1) Die letterlike genetiese afstammelinge van die Huis van
Juda (Juda en Benjamin). Hulle is dus die suiwer afstamme-
linge van Israel. Hulle is dus Adamiete (Blankes). Korrekte
benaming : Die "Judeërs".
2) Diegene wat nie genetiese afstammelinge van die Huis van
Juda (die Judeërs) is nie, maar wat later by die Huis van Juda
(net voor Christus) ingesluip het. Hulle is die Fariseërs en die
Skrifgeleerdes en hulle volgelinge. Christus noem hulle die ad-
dergeslag, want hulle dra letterlik die gene van satan. Hulle is
letterlik die kinders van die duiwel. Dit was juis hulle wat vir die
skares laat opsweep het om Christus om die lewe te bring.
Hulle verwerp ook vir Christus en Sy Evangelie. Algemene
benaming : Die "Jode".
3) 'n Mengsel van basters en volgelinge wat die Joodse geloof
aangeneem het en wat sodoende Jode geword het. Die meer-
derheid Jode van vandag is geensins die letterlike, genetiese
afstammelinge van die volk Israel nie. Vandag se Jode bestaan
uit 'n menigde van volke en basters. Hulle is ook grootliks van
sigbare gemengde bloed. Hulle is vandag se Sioniste en hulle
verwerp vir Christus en Sy Evangelie. Algemene benaming :
Die "Jode".
Daar is dus 'n reuse verskil tussen 'n Judeër en 'n Jood.
Weer eens : Nie AL die Samaritane was van nie-Israel bloed
nie. Maar daar was wel Samaritane wat van Adam se suiwer
nageslag (Israel) afgestam het. Daarom erken hulle ook hulle
vader Jakob.
En die Judeërs ten tye van Christus het ook geen gemeenskap
met die (Adamiese) Samaritane gehou nie. - So ook het die Ju-
deërs selfs nie gemeenskap met al die ander 'heidene' (Blanke,
Israelitiese heidene) gehou, wat uit die verstrooiing (van Israel)
gekom het nie.
Maar Petrus en Paulus het God se opdrag uitgevoer, naamlik
dat hulle ook na die verheidense (verstrooide) Israeliete (Blankes)
moes gaan om die Evangelie aan hulle te verkondig, soos dit deur
die Profete voorspel was. Dit is waarom daar in die NT van die twee
kuddes [die verstrooides uit die twee Stamme (Juda), en uit die tien
Stamme (Israel)] gepraat word, wat weer saamgevoeg moet word.
Daardie "ander kudde" was dus die verstrooide, verheidense Israel-
iete (Blankes). Die "heidene" in die NT is dus slegs (verstrooide)
Israeliete (Blankes), en NIE alle rasse en volke, soos die vervloekte
Kerke al vir jare verkondig nie. Gevolgtrekking : Die Kerke LIEG.
Stry maar, Libbie, want sodra jy (met jou Doktorsgraad et al) begin
stry oor die Woord, - dan gaan ek maar weer hier 'n waterdigte
Bybelstudie pos wat weer eens vir jou (en jou tipe) 'n helse
verleentheid gaan wees.
Ek sien uit daarna...
Cheers!
Jim, die Bybelse rassis
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109366 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109353] |
Thu, 02 March 2006 05:40 |
Torreke
Boodskappe: 1165
Geregistreer: April 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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Wat jou godsdiens en jou standpunte werd is, word weerspieël in jou
taalgebruik.
"As iemand onder julle meen dat hy godsdienstig is en sy tong nie in toom
hou, maar sy hart mislei, die godsdiens van hierdie man is tevergeefs" (Jak.
1:26)
"Jim Again..." wrote in message
news:1141250283.645025.317840@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com.. .
Nee, Libbie
Ek het nog nie hier 'n Bybelstudie oor "die Jode" hier gebring
nie, daarom verstaan niemand daardie punte nie.
Die term "Jode" in die Bybel is 'n wisselterm, en daarom het
dit hoofsaklik drie afsonderlike betekenisse :
1) Die letterlike genetiese afstammelinge van die Huis van
Juda (Juda en Benjamin). Hulle is dus die suiwer afstamme-
linge van Israel. Hulle is dus Adamiete (Blankes). Korrekte
benaming : Die "Judeërs".
2) Diegene wat nie genetiese afstammelinge van die Huis van
Juda (die Judeërs) is nie, maar wat later by die Huis van Juda
(net voor Christus) ingesluip het. Hulle is die Fariseërs en die
Skrifgeleerdes en hulle volgelinge. Christus noem hulle die ad-
dergeslag, want hulle dra letterlik die gene van satan. Hulle is
letterlik die kinders van die duiwel. Dit was juis hulle wat vir die
skares laat opsweep het om Christus om die lewe te bring.
Hulle verwerp ook vir Christus en Sy Evangelie. Algemene
benaming : Die "Jode".
3) 'n Mengsel van basters en volgelinge wat die Joodse geloof
aangeneem het en wat sodoende Jode geword het. Die meer-
derheid Jode van vandag is geensins die letterlike, genetiese
afstammelinge van die volk Israel nie. Vandag se Jode bestaan
uit 'n menigde van volke en basters. Hulle is ook grootliks van
sigbare gemengde bloed. Hulle is vandag se Sioniste en hulle
verwerp vir Christus en Sy Evangelie. Algemene benaming :
Die "Jode".
Daar is dus 'n reuse verskil tussen 'n Judeër en 'n Jood.
Weer eens : Nie AL die Samaritane was van nie-Israel bloed
nie. Maar daar was wel Samaritane wat van Adam se suiwer
nageslag (Israel) afgestam het. Daarom erken hulle ook hulle
vader Jakob.
En die Judeërs ten tye van Christus het ook geen gemeenskap
met die (Adamiese) Samaritane gehou nie. - So ook het die Ju-
deërs selfs nie gemeenskap met al die ander 'heidene' (Blanke,
Israelitiese heidene) gehou, wat uit die verstrooiing (van Israel)
gekom het nie.
Maar Petrus en Paulus het God se opdrag uitgevoer, naamlik
dat hulle ook na die verheidense (verstrooide) Israeliete (Blankes)
moes gaan om die Evangelie aan hulle te verkondig, soos dit deur
die Profete voorspel was. Dit is waarom daar in die NT van die twee
kuddes [die verstrooides uit die twee Stamme (Juda), en uit die tien
Stamme (Israel)] gepraat word, wat weer saamgevoeg moet word.
Daardie "ander kudde" was dus die verstrooide, verheidense Israel-
iete (Blankes). Die "heidene" in die NT is dus slegs (verstrooide)
Israeliete (Blankes), en NIE alle rasse en volke, soos die vervloekte
Kerke al vir jare verkondig nie. Gevolgtrekking : Die Kerke LIEG.
Stry maar, Libbie, want sodra jy (met jou Doktorsgraad et al) begin
stry oor die Woord, - dan gaan ek maar weer hier 'n waterdigte
Bybelstudie pos wat weer eens vir jou (en jou tipe) 'n helse
verleentheid gaan wees.
Ek sien uit daarna...
Cheers!
Jim, die Bybelse rassis
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109389 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109379] |
Fri, 03 March 2006 00:01 |
Jim Again
Boodskappe: 246
Geregistreer: January 2007
Karma: 0
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Kanse, Libbie, kanse
Net soos 'n regte bobbejaan, Libbie, is jy 'n reuse opportunis.
Watter tipe liberalis is jy? - Dom of demonies?
Ek dink demonies, want jy ignoreer opsetlik die feite.
- Baie gerieflik vir jou. ne?
Hierdie Samaritaanse vrou was duidelik 'n Israeliet:
Joh. 4: 12 : "U is tog nie groter as ons vader Jakob nie, wat
die put aan ons gegee het en self daaruit gedrink het, en sy
seuns en sy vee?"
Waarom is sy dan 'n Israeliet, Libbie? - Want sy erken haar
vader Jakob. Want, jy sien Libbie, Jakob was die stamvader
van Israel. Jou liberale opportunisme loop jou ver vooruit.
En slegs die Israeliete (veral van daardie tyd) het hulle Mes-
sias (die Christus) verwag, daarom is die Samaritaanse vrou
vir seker 'n Israeliet:
Joh. 4: 25 : "Die vrou sê vir Hom : Ek weet dat die Messías
kom, Hy wat Christus genoem word. Wanneer Hy kom, sal
Hy ons alles verkondig."
En die feit dat sy daar van "ons" praat bevestig dat sy nie die
enigste verstrooide Israeliet daar was nie.
Hoe ver wil jy jou deursigtige liberale opportunisme nog voer,
hmmmmmm, Libbie ?
Jy het mos daardie teologiese Doktorsgraad, of hoe ? - So,
waarom wil jy jou self nou nog soooooo 'dom', dig, en difficult
hou, hmmmmmm, Libbie ?
Duidelik is jy nou in jou liberale hoekie vasgekeer, want jy
spartel soos 'n gewonde slang; - geen wonder dat jy nou
so opsigtelik en desperaat poog om die vraagstuk te "side-
step" nie, deur na al my poste te verwys as "vuil taal", en
sodoende te poog om my kredietwaardigheid in twyfel te
trek, hmmmmm, Libbie?
- Dit noem hulle doodeenvoudig "aandag afleiding" of "de-
fleksie van die onderwerp". Dit werk nie, Libbie, dit werk
nie. Jou pogings faal tragies elke keer.
Net so ietsie interessant oor kragwoorde (en nog wat) in
die bybel; - Nehemia het diegene wat VERMENG het, ge-
vloek, geslaan, en hulle baarde uitgepluk:
Neh. 13: 25 : "Daarom het ek met hulle getwis en hulle
gevloek, en sommige van hulle geslaan en die hare uit-
gepluk en hulle by God besweer: Julle mag julle dog-
ters nie aan hulle seuns gee, en julle mag nie van
hulle dogters vir julle seuns of vir julleself neem nie!"
Haaai, oooooh, Libbie?...
Wat nou, Libbie? - Nou sien ons jou, hoe jy met jou
skerp, (bitch-erige) femenis-stemmetjie daar staan en
keel-afgaan omdat Nehemia en die bybel soooooo 'n
verskriklike wrede bundel is, of hoe, Libbie ? Gaan jy
nou ook hier vir Nehemia veroordeel, hmmmmm,
Libbie ? Nou is alles wat Nehemia geskryf het seker
ook eweskielik "null and void", of hoe, Libbie?
Ek dink eerder dat jou onopregte, liberale motiewe
jou vinnig ingehaal het.
Laat die opregte lesers hier maar self oordeel...
Jim, die bybelse rassis
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109397 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109389] |
Fri, 03 March 2006 08:30 |
Torreke
Boodskappe: 1165
Geregistreer: April 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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> "Jim Again..." wrote
> Hierdie Samaritaanse vrou was duidelik 'n Israeliet:
> Joh. 4: 12 : "U is tog nie groter as ons vader Jakob nie, wat
> die put aan ons gegee het en self daaruit gedrink het, en sy
> seuns en sy vee?"
> Waarom is sy dan 'n Israeliet, Libbie? - Want sy erken haar
> vader Jakob. Want, jy sien Libbie, Jakob was die stamvader
> van Israel. Jou liberale opportunisme loop jou ver vooruit.
Alweer die JW12 logika.
Die vrou noem hom "ons vader Jakob"
Dus sy stam van Jakob af.
Die argument is netso waar soos:
Thabo Mbeki noem Pres. Kruger "Oom Paul"
Dus Mbeki is Pres. Kruger se susterskind.
(en Mbeki het inderdaad so na Pres Kruger verwys by die inswering van
Tshwane se burgemeester)
Die feit dat die Samaritaanse vrou na Jakob as haar vader verwys, is geen
bewys dat sy biologies van hom afstam nie. Die woorde "seun" en "vader" is
al in die Bybelse tyd oordragtelik gebruik om respek en/of toegeneentheid
uit te druk en beteken nie noodwendig bloedverwantskap nie. Voorbeelde: In
2 Kon 2:12 noem Elisa Elia "my vader"; 2 Kon 5:13 spreek Naaman se slawe hom
as "vader" aan, en in 2 Kon. 13:14 noem die koning van Israel Elisa "my
vader".
Jesus verwerp nie in soveel woorde wat die vrou sê nie, maar hy korigeer dit
nogtans deur die verskil en afstand tussen "julle" (die Samaritane) en "ons"
(die Jode) uit te wys.
Joh. 4:22 "Julle aanbid wat julle nie weet nie; ons aanbid wat ons weet,
want die saligheid is uit die Jode".
Probeer weer, Jim.
> Was (al) die Samaritane basters ? Nee. Die Bybel verklaar
> dat daar ook verstrooide (verheidense) Israeliete onder hulle
> was.
Teksverwysing??? !!!!!
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109398 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109389] |
Fri, 03 March 2006 08:38 |
Torreke
Boodskappe: 1165
Geregistreer: April 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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> "Jim Again..." wrote
> Kanse, Libbie, kanse
> Net soos 'n regte bobbejaan, Libbie, is jy 'n reuse opportunis.
> Watter tipe liberalis is jy? - Dom of demonies?
> Ek dink demonies, want jy ignoreer opsetlik die feite.
> Hoe ver wil jy jou deursigtige liberale opportunisme nog voer,
> hmmmmmm, Libbie ?
> Jy het mos daardie teologiese Doktorsgraad, of hoe ? - So,
> waarom wil jy jou self nou nog soooooo 'dom', dig, en difficult
> hou, hmmmmmm, Libbie ?
> Duidelik is jy nou in jou liberale hoekie vasgekeer, want jy
> spartel soos 'n gewonde slang; - geen wonder dat jy nou
> so opsigtelik en desperaat poog om die vraagstuk te "side-
> step" nie, deur na al my poste te verwys as "vuil taal", en
> sodoende te poog om my kredietwaardigheid in twyfel te
> trek, hmmmmm, Libbie?
> Haaai, oooooh, Libbie?...
> Wat nou, Libbie? - Nou sien ons jou, hoe jy met jou
> skerp, (bitch-erige) femenis-stemmetjie daar staan en
> keel-afgaan omdat Nehemia en die bybel soooooo 'n
> verskriklike wrede bundel is, of hoe, Libbie ? Gaan jy
> nou ook hier vir Nehemia veroordeel, hmmmmm,
> Libbie ? Nou is alles wat Nehemia geskryf het seker
> ook eweskielik "null and void", of hoe, Libbie?
> Ek dink eerder dat jou onopregte, liberale motiewe
> jou vinnig ingehaal het.
> Laat die opregte lesers hier maar self oordeel...
Wat jou godsdiens en jou standpunte werd is, word weerspieël in jou
taalgebruik.
"As iemand onder julle meen dat hy godsdienstig is en sy tong nie in toom
hou nie, maar sy hart mislei, die godsdiens van hierdie man is tevergeefs" (Jak.
1:26)
... elkeen wat sê: Jou dwaas! moet verantwoording doen in die helse vuur." (Mat. 5:21-22)
Met die tong "...loof ons God die Vader, en daarmee vervloek ons die mense wat na die gelykenis van God gemaak is. Uit dieselfde mond kom seën en vervloeking. Dit, my broeders, behoort nie so te wees nie. 'n Fontein laat tog nie uit dieselfde oog vars en bitter water opborrel nie?
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| Re: Liberale Verdraaiings van die Bybel [boodskap #109407 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #109401] |
Fri, 03 March 2006 11:35 |
Torreke
Boodskappe: 1165
Geregistreer: April 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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"Jim Again..." wrote in message
news:1141376116.129860.62770@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Libbie
>
> En waar staan dat sy wel 'n baster was ?
>
> Teksverwysing???!!!!
>
> Jim
>
Jy vermy die vraag, Jimmy, jy vermy die vraag.
Jy vermy die vraag want daar is nie so 'n teks nie!!!
Dit kan nie uit die teks afgelei word waarop jou ideologie gebou is nie.
Maar dat sy hoogs waarskynlik van gemengde afkoms was, kan wel uit die
volgende teks afgelei word:
2 Kon. 17:24: "En die koning van Assirië het uit Babel en uit Kuta en uit
Awa en uit Hamat en Sefarvaim mense ingevoer en laat woon in die stede van
Samaria, in die plek van die kinders van Israel: Hulle het Samaria in besit
geneem en in sy stede gaan woon. En in die begin van hulle vestiging daar
het hulle die HERE nie gevrees nie. Toe stuur die HERE leeus onder hulle,
en dié het onder hulle sommige gedood." "Toe gee die koning van Assirië
bevel en sê: Bring een van die priesters daarheen wat julle daarvandaan
weggevoer het...dat hy hulle die verpligting teenoor die God van die land
kan leer. En een van die priesters wat uit Samaria weggevoer is, het gekom
en hom in Bet-el gevestig en hulle geleer hoe hulle die HERE moet vrees."
"Hulle het die HERE gevrees en hulle eie gode gedien volgens die gebruik van
die nasies waar hulle vandaan weggevoer is. Tot vandag toe handel hulle
volgens die vroeëre gebruike..."
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