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| ACCUSED #1 Mandela [boodskap #100274] |
Do, 11 November 2004 22:26  |
![emmy[1] is tans af-lyn](/theme/default/images/offline.png "emmy[1] is tans af-lyn")
emmy[1]
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Deze zeer interessante documentaire is op de Nederlands
Televisie geweest.
Interview met de maakster
Grt Emmy
============================================================ =
BBC Four: What made you want to tell the story of the
Rivonia trial?
Pascale Lamche: It really came from Nick Fraser [Storyville
Series Editor]. He was spending a lot of time working in
South Africa and said it would be interesting to make a film
about the Rivonia trial because nobody had really looked
into that story before. People knew about Nelson Mandela and
that he was incarcerated on Robben Island for 27 years but
nobody knew in-depth how and why he'd got there. Also, this
year is the 10th anniversary of democracy in South Africa so
for it to be shown now is very important. It shows what a
multicultural movement of resistance it was.
BBC Four: That was something that surprised me. I suspect
many people don't realise how many whites were involved in
the civil rights movement in South Africa.
PL: It was a total revelation to me too. I knew it had been
a multicultural movement but not that there were so many
white militants in the higher echelons of Umkhonto we Sizwe
(MK), which was the armed, military wing of the ANC. That
kind of answers the astonishing question as to why Nelson
Mandela was able to create this "rainbow nation". To make a
peaceful transition in South Africa and to share democracy
without any bloodshed was a fantastic feat - one of the
greatest historical achievements of the 20th Century.
BBC Four: It also becomes apparent in the film how this all
played into the Cold War...
PL: Ethics were put to the wind; especially as far as
Britain and America were concerned, but others too. It was
strategically critical that South Africa remained in the
'Western' camp during the 1960s, even if they were
oppressing the majority of their population. If the Soviet
Union had been successful and this domino effect happened
throughout Africa with the burgeoning independence
movements, then South Africa would be the last bastion
against communism.
BBC Four: Which is why the government was so eager to
portray the ANC as communists...
PL: Absolutely. Winnie Mandela makes the point perfectly in
the film. She says that on the whole they were not
communists. They allied themselves with anyone who felt
injustice in their country and that happened to be the white
Communist Party. But it obviously made sense for the
opposition to scream "Red Menace" and get the backing from
other Western powers, who poured in money and expertise, to
crush the black independence movement.
BBC Four: What was the extent of CIA involvement?
BBC Four: What made you want to tell the story of the
Rivonia trial?
Pascale Lamche: It really came from Nick Fraser [Storyville
Series Editor]. He was spending a lot of time working in
South Africa and said it would be interesting to make a film
about the Rivonia trial because nobody had really looked
into that story before. People knew about Nelson Mandela and
that he was incarcerated on Robben Island for 27 years but
nobody knew in-depth how and why he'd got there. Also, this
year is the 10th anniversary of democracy in South Africa so
for it to be shown now is very important. It shows what a
multicultural movement of resistance it was.
BBC Four: That was something that surprised me. I suspect
many people don't realise how many whites were involved in
the civil rights movement in South Africa.
PL: It was a total revelation to me too. I knew it had been
a multicultural movement but not that there were so many
white militants in the higher echelons of Umkhonto we Sizwe
(MK), which was the armed, military wing of the ANC. That
kind of answers the astonishing question as to why Nelson
Mandela was able to create this "rainbow nation". To make a
peaceful transition in South Africa and to share democracy
without any bloodshed was a fantastic feat - one of the
greatest historical achievements of the 20th Century.
BBC Four: It also becomes apparent in the film how this all
played into the Cold War...
PL: Ethics were put to the wind; especially as far as
Britain and America were concerned, but others too. It was
strategically critical that South Africa remained in the
'Western' camp during the 1960s, even if they were
oppressing the majority of their population. If the Soviet
Union had been successful and this domino effect happened
throughout Africa with the burgeoning independence
movements, then South Africa would be the last bastion
against communism.
BBC Four: Which is why the government was so eager to
portray the ANC as communists...
PL: Absolutely. Winnie Mandela makes the point perfectly in
the film. She says that on the whole they were not
communists. They allied themselves with anyone who felt
injustice in their country and that happened to be the white
Communist Party. But it obviously made sense for the
opposition to scream "Red Menace" and get the backing from
other Western powers, who poured in money and expertise, to
crush the black independence movement.
BBC Four: What was the extent of CIA involvement?
PL: That is what's astonishing. Gerard Ludi, the former
secret service intelligence officer who infiltrated the
Communist Party at that time, explains quite clearly in the
film that it was the CIA that handed over Mandela to the
South African special branch and secret services. What he
says is a complete scoop and hasn't been told before,
although some people have worked out that there was CIA
involvement. When the 90-day detention law came into effect
they arrested an Indian guy in Durban who was actually a CIA
operative. A huge row erupted with the CIA over this guy.
The South African police refused to release him and in the
end the CIA had to make a bargain: they traded their
information, which led to Nelson Mandela's arrest, for their
CIA operative. It really is astonishing.
BBC Four: Did you sense that the interviewees felt they were
shedding light on a piece of 'lost history'?
PL: Totally. The original interviews are very long and are
going into South Africa's national archive because they are
exceptionally important pieces of history. Many of the
interviewees, the Jewish militants especially, are just
fantastic storytellers. Not only do they have a capacity to
analyse, but many of them spent more than 20 years in jail,
so they had plenty of time to pore over the details of all
this. By the time we had finished the interview with Dennis
Goldberg I could have made a very bold statement to Nick
Fraser and said, this film needs to be just one man talking
against black and that's it - he was so powerfully
evocative. I knew I wouldn't do that but I think Dennis
Goldberg could probably tour through South Africa just
giving this extraordinary monologue.
What this story also shows is that they were a bunch of
bungling intellectuals. They didn't really know how to do
this. The fact that they kept hundreds of incriminating
documents is ludicrous. I'm sure that no other underground
guerrilla movement, in basically a police state, kept
documents that could send them away for eternity. But they
did because they realised they were making history and
needed to keep all this stuff.
BBC Four: Did you get any impression that anyone in the
movement thought it was an odd alliance?
PL: Not at all. It was a very symbiotic, close relationship.
Someone like Rusty Bernstein, who was a communist, was the
most rigorously aware that security lapses were being made
and the one who tried most significantly to stop it. In many
ways, if Liliesleaf Farm had remained just a headquarters
for the Communist Party, and not a place where top ANC
leaders hid, it probably would have maintained more
stringent security procedures.
The Communist Party had been banned since 1950 so by this
stage they'd already had 14 years as an underground
movement. The ANC was only banned in 1960 so it very young
in the underground movement. It was a coming together in
extreme circumstances of one group of people who had been
underground for a long time and another who hadn't. The
comradeship and sense of combined struggle is very strong in
all of them. It's not divided along any racial lines at all
and I think that's what created the roots of South Africa
today.
NELSON MANDELA: ACCUSED #1 HOMEPAGE
Previous Storyvilles
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| Re: ACCUSED #1 Mandela [boodskap #100276 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #100274] |
Do, 11 November 2004 22:43  |
bouer
Boodskappe: 4795
Geregistreer: Desember 2003
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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> BBC Four: What was the extent of CIA involvement?
Gerard Ludi, the former
> secret service intelligence officer who infiltrated the Communist Party at
> that time, explains quite clearly in the film that it was the CIA that
> handed over Mandela to the South African special branch and secret
> services. What he says is a complete scoop and hasn't been told before,
> although some people have worked out that there was CIA involvement. When
> the 90-day detention law came into effect they arrested an Indian guy in
> Durban who was actually a CIA operative. A huge row erupted with the CIA
> over this guy. The South African police refused to release him and in the
> end the CIA had to make a bargain: they traded their information, which
> led to Nelson Mandela's arrest, for their CIA operative. It really is
> astonishing.
Ek dink die CIA was vir baie lank, tot diep in
die tagtigerjare, agter sommige van die dade
van die apartheidsregering. Dick Cheney was
een van die mense wat gedurende sy dae in
die Ford (?) en Reagan-regerings, altyd gekeer
het dat die VSA oorgaan met sanksies teen
SA. Uiteindelik was die apartheidsregering maar
net lakeie van die Amerikaners.
Gloudina
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| Re: ACCUSED #1 Mandela [boodskap #100279 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #100274] |
Vr, 12 November 2004 05:05 |
Dingus
Boodskappe: 187
Geregistreer: Oktober 2000
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Z.T. Kommie 1994
Hierdie versie kan gesing word aan die
wysie 'Die Donkie is 'n wonderlike ding'.
Die kommie, O die kommie
die kommtjie is 'n wonderlike ding...
Hy's groot en hy's groen en soos 'n pampoen -
hy sa-al jou poephol laat sing!
(Herhaal x 2)
Die CIA, O die CIA
die CIAtjie is 'n wonderlike ding...
Hy's groot en hy's groen en soos 'n pampoen -
hy sa-al jou poephol laat sing!
(Herhaal x 2)
Musiek daarvoor:
(op dir kitaar, is dit G - C - D)
(op die Wheatstone konsertina is dit iets anders)
(op die poephol is dit G# - Bb - Fb)
(op die neus is dit roff!)
"Emmy" skryf in boodskap news:4193e728$0$48816$cd19a363@news.wanadoo.nl...
> Deze zeer interessante documentaire is op de Nederlands
> Televisie geweest.
> Interview met de maakster
> Grt Emmy
>
> ============================================================ =
> BBC Four: What made you want to tell the story of the
> Rivonia trial?
> Pascale Lamche: It really came from Nick Fraser [Storyville
> Series Editor]. He was spending a lot of time working in
> South Africa and said it would be interesting to make a film
> about the Rivonia trial because nobody had really looked
> into that story before. People knew about Nelson Mandela and
> that he was incarcerated on Robben Island for 27 years but
> nobody knew in-depth how and why he'd got there. Also, this
> year is the 10th anniversary of democracy in South Africa so
> for it to be shown now is very important. It shows what a
> multicultural movement of resistance it was.
>
> BBC Four: That was something that surprised me. I suspect
> many people don't realise how many whites were involved in
> the civil rights movement in South Africa.
> PL: It was a total revelation to me too. I knew it had been
> a multicultural movement but not that there were so many
> white militants in the higher echelons of Umkhonto we Sizwe
> (MK), which was the armed, military wing of the ANC. That
> kind of answers the astonishing question as to why Nelson
> Mandela was able to create this "rainbow nation". To make a
> peaceful transition in South Africa and to share democracy
> without any bloodshed was a fantastic feat - one of the
> greatest historical achievements of the 20th Century.
>
> BBC Four: It also becomes apparent in the film how this all
> played into the Cold War...
> PL: Ethics were put to the wind; especially as far as
> Britain and America were concerned, but others too. It was
> strategically critical that South Africa remained in the
> 'Western' camp during the 1960s, even if they were
> oppressing the majority of their population. If the Soviet
> Union had been successful and this domino effect happened
> throughout Africa with the burgeoning independence
> movements, then South Africa would be the last bastion
> against communism.
>
> BBC Four: Which is why the government was so eager to
> portray the ANC as communists...
> PL: Absolutely. Winnie Mandela makes the point perfectly in
> the film. She says that on the whole they were not
> communists. They allied themselves with anyone who felt
> injustice in their country and that happened to be the white
> Communist Party. But it obviously made sense for the
> opposition to scream "Red Menace" and get the backing from
> other Western powers, who poured in money and expertise, to
> crush the black independence movement.
>
> BBC Four: What was the extent of CIA involvement?
> BBC Four: What made you want to tell the story of the
> Rivonia trial?
> Pascale Lamche: It really came from Nick Fraser [Storyville
> Series Editor]. He was spending a lot of time working in
> South Africa and said it would be interesting to make a film
> about the Rivonia trial because nobody had really looked
> into that story before. People knew about Nelson Mandela and
> that he was incarcerated on Robben Island for 27 years but
> nobody knew in-depth how and why he'd got there. Also, this
> year is the 10th anniversary of democracy in South Africa so
> for it to be shown now is very important. It shows what a
> multicultural movement of resistance it was.
> BBC Four: That was something that surprised me. I suspect
> many people don't realise how many whites were involved in
> the civil rights movement in South Africa.
> PL: It was a total revelation to me too. I knew it had been
> a multicultural movement but not that there were so many
> white militants in the higher echelons of Umkhonto we Sizwe
> (MK), which was the armed, military wing of the ANC. That
> kind of answers the astonishing question as to why Nelson
> Mandela was able to create this "rainbow nation". To make a
> peaceful transition in South Africa and to share democracy
> without any bloodshed was a fantastic feat - one of the
> greatest historical achievements of the 20th Century.
> BBC Four: It also becomes apparent in the film how this all
> played into the Cold War...
> PL: Ethics were put to the wind; especially as far as
> Britain and America were concerned, but others too. It was
> strategically critical that South Africa remained in the
> 'Western' camp during the 1960s, even if they were
> oppressing the majority of their population. If the Soviet
> Union had been successful and this domino effect happened
> throughout Africa with the burgeoning independence
> movements, then South Africa would be the last bastion
> against communism.
> BBC Four: Which is why the government was so eager to
> portray the ANC as communists...
> PL: Absolutely. Winnie Mandela makes the point perfectly in
> the film. She says that on the whole they were not
> communists. They allied themselves with anyone who felt
> injustice in their country and that happened to be the white
> Communist Party. But it obviously made sense for the
> opposition to scream "Red Menace" and get the backing from
> other Western powers, who poured in money and expertise, to
> crush the black independence movement.
> BBC Four: What was the extent of CIA involvement?
> PL: That is what's astonishing. Gerard Ludi, the former
> secret service intelligence officer who infiltrated the
> Communist Party at that time, explains quite clearly in the
> film that it was the CIA that handed over Mandela to the
> South African special branch and secret services. What he
> says is a complete scoop and hasn't been told before,
> although some people have worked out that there was CIA
> involvement. When the 90-day detention law came into effect
> they arrested an Indian guy in Durban who was actually a CIA
> operative. A huge row erupted with the CIA over this guy.
> The South African police refused to release him and in the
> end the CIA had to make a bargain: they traded their
> information, which led to Nelson Mandela's arrest, for their
> CIA operative. It really is astonishing.
> BBC Four: Did you sense that the interviewees felt they were
> shedding light on a piece of 'lost history'?
> PL: Totally. The original interviews are very long and are
> going into South Africa's national archive because they are
> exceptionally important pieces of history. Many of the
> interviewees, the Jewish militants especially, are just
> fantastic storytellers. Not only do they have a capacity to
> analyse, but many of them spent more than 20 years in jail,
> so they had plenty of time to pore over the details of all
> this. By the time we had finished the interview with Dennis
> Goldberg I could have made a very bold statement to Nick
> Fraser and said, this film needs to be just one man talking
> against black and that's it - he was so powerfully
> evocative. I knew I wouldn't do that but I think Dennis
> Goldberg could probably tour through South Africa just
> giving this extraordinary monologue.
>
> What this story also shows is that they were a bunch of
> bungling intellectuals. They didn't really know how to do
> this. The fact that they kept hundreds of incriminating
> documents is ludicrous. I'm sure that no other underground
> guerrilla movement, in basically a police state, kept
> documents that could send them away for eternity. But they
> did because they realised they were making history and
> needed to keep all this stuff.
>
> BBC Four: Did you get any impression that anyone in the
> movement thought it was an odd alliance?
> PL: Not at all. It was a very symbiotic, close relationship.
> Someone like Rusty Bernstein, who was a communist, was the
> most rigorously aware that security lapses were being made
> and the one who tried most significantly to stop it. In many
> ways, if Liliesleaf Farm had remained just a headquarters
> for the Communist Party, and not a place where top ANC
> leaders hid, it probably would have maintained more
> stringent security procedures.
>
> The Communist Party had been banned since 1950 so by this
> stage they'd already had 14 years as an underground
> movement. The ANC was only banned in 1960 so it very young
> in the underground movement. It was a coming together in
> extreme circumstances of one group of people who had been
> underground for a long time and another who hadn't. The
> comradeship and sense of combined struggle is very strong in
> all of them. It's not divided along any racial lines at all
> and I think that's what created the roots of South Africa
> today.
>
> NELSON MANDELA: ACCUSED #1 HOMEPAGE
> Previous Storyvilles
>
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| Re: ACCUSED #1 Mandela [boodskap #100282 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #100274] |
Vr, 12 November 2004 05:51 |
PietR
Boodskappe: 3341
Geregistreer: Julie 2003
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Ek wil ook net sê dat hierdie sekerlik iemand is wat baie kreatief geraak
het. Wat 'n pot stront!
"Jonas" skryf in boodskap news:cn1ckj$jcj$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> Hlo Emmy. Jammer maar ek het lanklaas soveel strooi gelees.
> Die CIA het seker ook die ANC in 'n vennootskap met die ANC gedwing nadat
> hulle onafhanklikheid bereik het?
> Winnie Mandela word aangehaal - sy is 'n krimineel en bepaald 'n
> onbetroubare getuie.
> Waarom wil die ANC nou hulle verbindtenis met die kommuniste ontken? Dit
> nadat hulle kwansuis as "suksesvolle" vryheidsvegters deur Kuba en Rusland
> opgelei is. Waarom is daar steeds sulke noue bande tussen Kuba en die ANC?
> (Ook seker deur die CIA teweeggebring.)
>
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| Re: ACCUSED #1 Mandela [boodskap #100285 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #100276] |
Vr, 12 November 2004 08:23 |
Ferdi Greyling
Boodskappe: 1232
Geregistreer: Mei 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:43:20 -0500, "@rogers.com" wrote:
> Ek dink die CIA was vir baie lank, tot diep in
> die tagtigerjare, agter sommige van die dade
> van die apartheidsregering. Dick Cheney was
> een van die mense wat gedurende sy dae in
> die Ford (?) en Reagan-regerings, altyd gekeer
> het dat die VSA oorgaan met sanksies teen
> SA. Uiteindelik was die apartheidsregering maar
> net lakeie van die Amerikaners.
Cheney het in fact in the Amerikaanse senaat teen 'n mosie gestem wat
gevra het dat mandela vrygelaat moet word.
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| Re: ACCUSED #1 Mandela [boodskap #100291 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #100274] |
Vr, 12 November 2004 13:01 |
Vusi
Boodskappe: 2211
Geregistreer: Februarie 2001
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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Hlo Emmy. Jammer maar ek het lanklaas soveel strooi gelees.
Die CIA het seker ook die ANC in 'n vennootskap met die ANC gedwing nadat
hulle onafhanklikheid bereik het?
Winnie Mandela word aangehaal - sy is 'n krimineel en bepaald 'n
onbetroubare getuie.
Waarom wil die ANC nou hulle verbindtenis met die kommuniste ontken? Dit
nadat hulle kwansuis as "suksesvolle" vryheidsvegters deur Kuba en Rusland
opgelei is. Waarom is daar steeds sulke noue bande tussen Kuba en die ANC?
(Ook seker deur die CIA teweeggebring.)
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| Re: ACCUSED #1 Mandela [boodskap #100299 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #100291] |
Sa, 13 November 2004 16:18 |
emmy[1]
Boodskappe: 865
Geregistreer: April 2001
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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Jonas wrote:
> Hlo Emmy. Jammer maar ek het lanklaas soveel strooi gelees.
> Die CIA het seker ook die ANC in 'n vennootskap met die ANC gedwing nadat
> hulle onafhanklikheid bereik het?
> Winnie Mandela word aangehaal - sy is 'n krimineel en bepaald 'n
> onbetroubare getuie.
> Waarom wil die ANC nou hulle verbindtenis met die kommuniste ontken? Dit
> nadat hulle kwansuis as "suksesvolle" vryheidsvegters deur Kuba en Rusland
> opgelei is. Waarom is daar steeds sulke noue bande tussen Kuba en die ANC?
> (Ook seker deur die CIA teweeggebring.)
Je moet de hele documentaire zien om te kunnen oordelen.
Deze documentaire is waardevol voor de geschiedenis van ZA
Ik denk dat veel ZA niet weten wat ze werkelijk allemaal
heeft afgespeeld.
In deze documentaire komen veel vooraanstaande aan het woord
die vertellen hoe het allemaal in werkelijkheid gegaan is.
Grt Emmy
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| Re: ACCUSED #1 Mandela [boodskap #100300 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #100279] |
Sa, 13 November 2004 17:43 |
DD
Boodskappe: 1166
Geregistreer: Junie 2003
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:05:37 +1300, "Dingus"
wrote:
O' dingus is 'n poepol... o dingus is 'n poepol
> Hierdie versie kan gesing word aan die
> wysie 'Die Donkie is 'n wonderlike ding'.
>
> Die kommie, O die kommie
> die kommtjie is 'n wonderlike ding...
> Hy's groot en hy's groen en soos 'n pampoen -
> hy sa-al dingus laat sing!
>
> (Herhaal x 2)
>
> Die CIA, O die CIA
> die CIAtjie is 'n wonderlike ding...
> Hy's groot en hy's groen en soos 'n pampoen -
> hy sa-al dingus laat sing!
>
> (Herhaal x 2)
>
>
> Musiek daarvoor:
> (op dir kitaar, is dit G - C - D)
> (op die Wheatstone konsertina is dit iets anders)
> (op die dingus is dit G# - Bb - Fb)
> (op die neus is dit roff!)
>
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