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 Die baba en die badwater [boodskap #74009 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #74008] |
Tue, 25 February 2003 22:20   |
Katryn
Boodskappe: 962
Geregistreer: July 2003
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Senior Lid |
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"Elaine" wrote:
> Wel, ek ken nou nie die presiese dag, datums en tye nie, maar ek sal dit met
> liefde gaan opsoek as jy wil? Ek rapporteer net wat ek lees. Ek lees baie.
Elaine, ek sal jou die moeite spaar, want ek vind nogal die oorsprong
van gesegdes, spreuke en ander sêgoed, baie interessant.
Die frase van jou blyk Duits van oorsprong te wees.
Volgens http://www.wordorigins.org/wordort.htm
is dit 'n Duitse spreuk wat terug na 1512 dateer.
"It was first recorded by Thomas Murner's in his satire
Narrenbeschwörung. Despite its fame in German (used by such notables
as Luther, Kepler, Goethe, Bismarck, Mann, and Grass), it doesn't
appear in English for several more centuries, until Thomas Carlyle
translated it and used it in an 1849 essay on slavery. "
http://www.utas.edu.au/docs/flonta/DP,1,1,95/BABY.html
WOLFGANG MIEDER
"(DON'T) THROW THE BABY OUT WITH THE BATHWATER":
The Americanization of a German Proverb and Proverbial Expression*
In memoriam Wayland D. Hand
When the proverb "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water" or its
parallel proverbial expression "To throw the baby out with the bath
water" appear today in Anglo-American oral communication or in books,
magazines, newspapers, advertisements or cartoons, hardly anybody
would surmise that this common metaphorical phrase is actually of
German origin and of relatively recent use in the English language. It
had its first written occurrence in Thomas Murner's (1475-1537)
versified satirical book Narrenbeschwörung (1512) which contains as
its eighty-first short chapter entitled "Das kindt mit dem bad vÃ
schitten" (To throw the baby out with the bath water) a treatise on
fools who by trying to rid themselves of a bad thing succeed in
destroying whatever good there was as well. In seventy-six rhymed
lines the proverbial phrase is repeated three times as a folkloric
leitmotif, and there is also the first illustration of the expression
as a woodcut depicting quite literally a woman who is pouring her baby
out with the bath water.1 Murner also cites the phrase repeatedly in
later works and this rather frequent use might be an indication that
the proverbial expression was already in oral currency towards the end
of the fifteenth century in Germany.
There is no doubt that the proverbial text gained rapid and universal
acceptance in the satirical and polemic literature of the Age of the
Reformation. Martin Luther (1483-1546) for example changed the
proverbial expression in his scholarly lecture about Salomo from 1526
to a proverb by adding the formula "Man soll ..." (One should, One
must, or Don't) to it: "Man sol [sic] das kind nicht mit dem bad
ausgiessen" (Don't throw the baby out with the bath water).2 It is of
interest to note here that Archer Taylor in an article on "The
Proverbial Formula 'Man soll' ..." (1930) takes this particular
expression to point out that "the formula was used to make
nonce-proverbs out of proverbial phrases. In 'Man soll das Kind nicht
mit dem Bade ausschütten', the starting point is the phrase 'das Kind
mit dem Bade ausschütten' and not the proverb. It may be possible to
dispute whether the phrase or the proverb was first in any particular
instance, but the general method of forming nonce-proverbs from
phrases remains."3 While Taylor does not explicitly refer to Luther,
he certainly is correct about his statement that the formula "Man soll
..." in general makes proverbs out of proverbial expressions. But even
Luther preferred to use it on several occasions in its phraseological
form, enabling him to employ the metaphor for polemic purposes rather
than as didactic wisdom which the proverb would express.
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| Re: Die baba en die badwater [boodskap #74029 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #74009] |
Wed, 26 February 2003 11:48 |
Sterrenkijker
Boodskappe: 654
Geregistreer: December 2003
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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Pragtige speurwerk, Danielle!
Ons moet egter wel realiseer dat daardie spreekwoord nie noodsaaklik
die eiendom van enkel Thomas Murner behoort te wees nie. Daar staan
êrens in die studies daaromtrent dat die spreekwoord waarskynlik al in
gebruik was by die gewone volk van Duitsland van daardie tyd. Thomas
Murner is wel deeglik die man wat dit vir die eerste maal in 'n teks
het opgeskryf. Maar dit kan ook so wees dat die spreekwoord al bestaan
het in die Duitse èn Nederlandse taalgebied tesaam. Want hoe lanker
ons teruggaan in die tyd hoe meer Duits en Nederlands met mekaar
gemeenskaplik het. Die spreekwoord is miskien selfs al baie ouer as
500 jaar en kan selfs oorspronklik heeltemal 'n andere klank gehad
het. Ons sal die egte waarheid omtrent die baba en die badwater
waarskynlik nooit weet nie.
Michel Martens het daaroor al iets gevra op nl.taal maar hy het tot
hiertoe daarop nog geen antwoord gekry nie.
Groetjies,
Norbert (uit Vlaandere)
On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:20:30 -0500, Katryn wrote:
> "Elaine" wrote:
>
>> Wel, ek ken nou nie die presiese dag, datums en tye nie, maar ek sal dit met
>> liefde gaan opsoek as jy wil? Ek rapporteer net wat ek lees. Ek lees baie.
>
> Elaine, ek sal jou die moeite spaar, want ek vind nogal die oorsprong
> van gesegdes, spreuke en ander sêgoed, baie interessant.
>
> Die frase van jou blyk Duits van oorsprong te wees.
> Volgens http://www.wordorigins.org/wordort.htm
> is dit 'n Duitse spreuk wat terug na 1512 dateer.
>
> "It was first recorded by Thomas Murner's in his satire
> Narrenbeschwörung. Despite its fame in German (used by such notables
> as Luther, Kepler, Goethe, Bismarck, Mann, and Grass), it doesn't
> appear in English for several more centuries, until Thomas Carlyle
> translated it and used it in an 1849 essay on slavery. "
>
>
> http://www.utas.edu.au/docs/flonta/DP,1,1,95/BABY.html
>
> WOLFGANG MIEDER
> "(DON'T) THROW THE BABY OUT WITH THE BATHWATER":
> The Americanization of a German Proverb and Proverbial Expression*
> In memoriam Wayland D. Hand
>
> When the proverb "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water" or its
> parallel proverbial expression "To throw the baby out with the bath
> water" appear today in Anglo-American oral communication or in books,
> magazines, newspapers, advertisements or cartoons, hardly anybody
> would surmise that this common metaphorical phrase is actually of
> German origin and of relatively recent use in the English language. It
> had its first written occurrence in Thomas Murner's (1475-1537)
> versified satirical book Narrenbeschwörung (1512) which contains as
> its eighty-first short chapter entitled "Das kindt mit dem bad vÃ
> schitten" (To throw the baby out with the bath water) a treatise on
> fools who by trying to rid themselves of a bad thing succeed in
> destroying whatever good there was as well. In seventy-six rhymed
> lines the proverbial phrase is repeated three times as a folkloric
> leitmotif, and there is also the first illustration of the expression
> as a woodcut depicting quite literally a woman who is pouring her baby
> out with the bath water.1 Murner also cites the phrase repeatedly in
> later works and this rather frequent use might be an indication that
> the proverbial expression was already in oral currency towards the end
> of the fifteenth century in Germany.
>
> There is no doubt that the proverbial text gained rapid and universal
> acceptance in the satirical and polemic literature of the Age of the
> Reformation. Martin Luther (1483-1546) for example changed the
> proverbial expression in his scholarly lecture about Salomo from 1526
> to a proverb by adding the formula "Man soll ..." (One should, One
> must, or Don't) to it: "Man sol [sic] das kind nicht mit dem bad
> ausgiessen" (Don't throw the baby out with the bath water).2 It is of
> interest to note here that Archer Taylor in an article on "The
> Proverbial Formula 'Man soll' ..." (1930) takes this particular
> expression to point out that "the formula was used to make
> nonce-proverbs out of proverbial phrases. In 'Man soll das Kind nicht
> mit dem Bade ausschütten', the starting point is the phrase 'das Kind
> mit dem Bade ausschütten' and not the proverb. It may be possible to
> dispute whether the phrase or the proverb was first in any particular
> instance, but the general method of forming nonce-proverbs from
> phrases remains."3 While Taylor does not explicitly refer to Luther,
> he certainly is correct about his statement that the formula "Man soll
> ..." in general makes proverbs out of proverbial expressions. But even
> Luther preferred to use it on several occasions in its phraseological
> form, enabling him to employ the metaphor for polemic purposes rather
> than as didactic wisdom which the proverb would express.
>
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| Re: Die baba en die badwater [boodskap #74065 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #74063] |
Thu, 27 February 2003 00:55 |
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Oorspronklik gepos deur: @rogers.com
Katryn wrote:
> Ek stem saam. Maar dit is darem duidelik dat die NIE 'n anglisisme is
> nie, en dis tog waaroor die gestryery was?
Ek twyfel of die gestryery was oor of dit
'n anglisisme is of nie. Ek het betwyfel of
die storie van die oorsprong van die
uitdrukking, soos deur Elaine vertel, werklik
was, of apokrief. Jou informasie het aangedui
dat dit al in die sestiende eeu in Duitsland
gebruik is ( dit wil sê, nie gedurende die
"Middeleeue" nie.) Maar dit kon seker wel al
in die Duitse Middeleeue gebruik gewees het in die
volksmond. Maar ek twyfel of die storie, dat
die baba laaste gebad is, en dat die water
so vuil was dat mense nie die babatjie kon sien
nie, en dit dus met die badwater kon uitgooi,
berus op die werklike toestand van sake.
Gloudina
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| Re: Die baba en die badwater [boodskap #74066 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #74065] |
Thu, 27 February 2003 01:47 |
Katryn
Boodskappe: 962
Geregistreer: July 2003
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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"@rogers.com" wrote:
> Maar ek twyfel of die storie, dat
> die baba laaste gebad is, en dat die water
> so vuil was dat mense nie die babatjie kon sien
> nie, en dit dus met die badwater kon uitgooi,
> berus op die werklike toestand van sake.
Ja wel - volgens daardie skakel wat ek gevind het, is Elaine se storie
interessant, maar ongelukkig wel 'n mite.
Hier is die toepaslike stuk vir diegene wat nie na die skakel kon of
wou kyk nie:
"There is a bit of false internet lore circling the globe about life
in England in the 1500s. One of the claims this gem of wisdom makes is
that the phrase throw the baby out with the bathwater comes from the
practice of taking annual baths using the same bathwater as the other
family members. By the time the children got a chance to bathe, the
water would be so dirty that infants could be lost in it. Hence the
phrase.
The phrase in question does happen date to the 1500s, but the rest of
the above story is pure fancy."
Ander skakels bevestig hierdie bevinding, en ek kon nêrens inligting
vind wat die teendeel bewys of selfs oor spekuleer nie.
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| Re: Die baba en die badwater [boodskap #74091 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #74063] |
Thu, 27 February 2003 09:07 |
Sterrenkijker
Boodskappe: 654
Geregistreer: December 2003
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 18:54:45 -0500, Katryn wrote:
> Sterrenkijker wrote:
>
>> Pragtige speurwerk, Danielle!
>
> Dankie, Norbert. Maar dis nou nie juis so moeilik om 'n paar
> woordjies in te tik en op die "search" knoppie te kliek nie. :-)
Dit lyk maar net so! 'n Mens moet eers tog 'n bietjie nadink watter
woorde hy/sy sal intik. Ek had self al enige speurwerk gedoen maar
niks gevind nie. Dit het gekom deurdat ek vernaamlik in die
Nederlandse en Franse webbladsye het gesoek. Omdat ek daardie
spreekwoord al so lank ken het ek nie eers gesoek in die Engelse
bladsye nie. Dit het my danig verras dat ons nou net dà à r moes gaan
soek.
Het jy dalk gelees op jou webbladsy dat die uitdrukking al in die 17de
eeu na Nederland toe geëmigreer is (staan in die laaste alinea)?
Sodoende kan ons onmiddellik baie daaraan twyfel dat die spreekwoord
'n anglisisme sou wees.
>
>> Ons moet egter wel realiseer dat daardie spreekwoord nie noodsaaklik
>> die eiendom van enkel Thomas Murner behoort te wees nie.
>
> Ek stem saam. Maar dit is darem duidelik dat die NIE 'n anglisisme is
> nie, en dis tog waaroor die gestryery was?
Ons sou beter al die anglisismes buitegooi en 'n bietje meer na onse
eie patrimonium en oorsprong loer!!! Anders gaan al daardie mooie
dinge verloor!
Groetjies,
Norbert (uit Vlaandere)
>
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