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Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #24565 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Wo, 07 Julie 1999 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Leendert van Oostrum  is tans af-lyn  Leendert van Oostrum
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Gervaas Hellin wrote in message ...
>> Maar vertel bietjie van die huidge stand van Vlaamse nasionalisme. Ek
>> hoor die Vlaamse Blok het sy steun opgestoot in die onlangse
>> verkiesing.
>
> Die 'Vlaams Blok' het 15 % van die stemme behaal - dit is van die 4 miljoen
> Vlaamse kiesers (dus ongeveer 600 000) stemme.

Oftewel drie Vlaminge uit elke 20. (Dis vir my makliker om 20 Vlaminge te
visualiseer om 'n konkrete idee te kry van hoe algemeen die verskynsel is)

> Hulle vermeerder hul aantal
> kiesers by elke verkiesing.

Hulle slaag dus daarin om steeds meer mense te oortuig van hul standpunte.

> Die groot probleem is dus dat die Volksunie by die een regering onmisbaar
> is, want niemand wil saam met die Blok regeer.

Dis interessant hoe so 'n minderheidsparty by verstek eintlik die
landsbeleid kan be-invloed - hul blote ongewildheid gee die Volksunie meer
mag!

> Die 'antinasionalistiese bewegings' (wat teen die Vlaams nasionalisme is) is
> al die Waalse partye :-)). Hul ekonomie is nou baie swakker as dié van
> Vlaandere en hulle hang van Vlaamse inkomste af vir o.a. die sosiale
> sekerheid. Hulle is vreeslik bang dat België uitmekaar sal val.

Hmmmm..... Help hierdie situasie 'n bietjie om arrogante Waalse houdinge te
onderdruk?

> Hoekom is die Vlaams Blok dan so suksesvol ? Hulle kry baie stemme in groot
> stede soos bv. Antwerpen (33 %), Gent (30%), Mechelen (ook êrens in die 30
> %) - omdat hulle 'n baie strikte vreemdelingepolitiek verkondig. In daardie
> stede kry jy baie Marokkane en Turke en hul kinders. Nou is die Vlaminge
> (ek's jammer om dit te moet sê, maar dit is so) baie wantrouig teenoor
> iedereen wat nie wit is nie.

> ([Die Vlaams Blok] word in die pers min of meer soos die verpersoonliking van
> die duiwel afgeskilder !). Wat nasionalisme betref, streef die Blok die
> onafhanklikheid van Vlaandere na. Hulle verteenwoordig ook al die
> tradisionele christelike waardes.

Ek lei af dat vreemdelingehaat 'n belangrike element van die stem vir die
Vlaams Blok uitmaak - is dit korrek, of is daar belangrike groepe wat nie
deur vreemdelingehaat gemotiveer word nie, maar wat nogtans vir die party
stem?

Watter soort "oplossing"(s) stel hulle voor vir die akkommodasie van
vreemdelinge in die Belgiese samelewing?

Dankie, Hilda, vir 'n baie insiggewende blik op die Belgiese politiek!
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #24566 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Wo, 07 Julie 1999 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Leendert van Oostrum  is tans af-lyn  Leendert van Oostrum
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In article ,
"Gervaas Hellin" wrote:
>
> Ek wou nog vra : as Matadi die tweede lelikste stad is, wat is dan die
> lelikste ? :-)).

Athene.

Maar dit hang af van my bui. Die twee stede ruil dikwels om.

Ek het Matadi dikwels van die see af besoek - met skepe van die
Atlantiewe Oseaan af, 85 seemyl (190 km) met die groot rivier op.

Net onder Matadi is daar 'n maalkol waar mens eers moet verby om by die
hawe te kom.

Alles groot sports!

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #24567 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Wo, 07 Julie 1999 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Simon van der Schans  is tans af-lyn  Simon van der Schans
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Leendert van Oostrum wrote in message
...

Eers..

>>> d) Miskien wil jy vir my 'n voorbeeld wys van 'n samelewing wat
>>> tegnologies gevorderd is, en wat die wetenskap en tegnologie deur medium van
>>> 'n taal anders as die omganstaal bedryf?

En, toe Alastair dit doen...

> Singapoer is bekend vir sy handel, maar beswaarlik vir sy
> tegnologiese leierskap.

Merk ek hier 'n subtiele verskuiwing van die doelpale?

Swart Simon
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #24568 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Wo, 07 Julie 1999 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Leendert van Oostrum  is tans af-lyn  Leendert van Oostrum
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"Gervaas Hellin" wrote:

> Ag, 'n mens belewe daardie
> lekker avonture net in Afrika ! Ek mis dit alles baie :-).
> Groete uit 'n nie-paradys :-).
> Hilda.
>

Amen!

"Heart of Darkness" het Conrad dit genoem!
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #24569 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Wo, 07 Julie 1999 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Hellin Gervaas  is tans af-lyn  Hellin Gervaas
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> Maar vertel bietjie van die huidge stand van Vlaamse nasionalisme. Ek
> hoor die Vlaamse Blok het sy steun opgestoot in die onlangse
> verkiesing.

Die 'Vlaams Blok' het 15 % van die stemme behaal - dit is van die 4 miljoen
Vlaamse kiesers (dus ongeveer 600 000) stemme. In België is ons verplig om
te gaan stem, dus het die meeste mense (ek onthou nie juis hoeveel persent
gaan stem het nie, maar dit draai rond 98 %). Hulle vermeerder hul aantal
kiesers by elke verkiesing. Hulle is nou die derde grootste party van
Vlaandere : vir die Vlaamse Raad is die CVP (Christen Volkspartij) nog die
grootste (24 %), dan kom die VLD (Vlaamse Liberale Democraten) (23%) en
daarna die VB. Die sosialiste het hierdie keer die verkiesings verloor en
die groene party (Agalev) het ook 'n groot wins gemaak en die Volksunie 'n
kleiner een. Vir die federale regering is die VLD die grootste Vlaamse party
en daarna die CVP en dan die VB.
Die twee partye wat die verkiesings verloor het is die CVP en die
sosialiste, wat voor die stemmery geregeer het. Die CVP gaan nou vir die
eerste keer sedert 40 jaar in die opposisie saam met die Vlaams Blok
(Vlaamse Raad) en saam met die VB en die Volksunie (Federale regering - waar
die Waalse partye ook setel ! Baie ingewikkeld !)
Hulle is op hierdie oomblik besig om te onderhandel en die toekomstige
eerste minister sal waarskynlik Guy Verhofstadt wees, wat 'n liberaal is
(uit Gent).

> Is daar ander nasionalsitiese bewegings? Anti-
nasionalsitiese bewegings?

Wel, die Volksunie is nog steeds 'n nasionalistiese beweging, maar minder
ekstreem as die Blok. Op hierdie oomblik kry Verhofstadt probleme deur die
Volksunie. Om 'n meerderheid te kry in die Vlaamse Raad sonder die Vlaams
Blok en die CVP, moet die ander partye 'n akkoord sluit met die Volksunie en
kom die Volksunie in die Vlaamse regering. Maar op Federale vlak wil die
Waalse partye die Volksunie liewers uit die regering hou. Hulle (die Wale)
is veral bang dat die Belgiese staat nog verder sal gefederaliseer word en
hul weier om by die regeringsakkoord (wat die regeringsvorming vooraf gaan)
oor 'n verder 'staatshervorming' te onderhandel. Nou sê die Volksunie : ja,
maar as daar geen toegewing gedoen word om die staatshervorming verder te
sit nie, dan weier ons om in die Vlaamse regering te stap !
Die groot probleem is dus dat die Volksunie by die een regering onmisbaar
is, want niemand wil saam met die Blok regeer.
Die 'antinasionalistiese bewegings' (wat teen die Vlaams nasionalisme is) is
al die Waalse partye :-)). Hul ekonomie is nou baie swakker as dié van
Vlaandere en hulle hang van Vlaamse inkomste af vir o.a. die sosiale
sekerheid. Hulle is vreeslik bang dat België uitmekaar sal val. Dit sien ek
nog nie gou gebeur nie, want ek dink dat die meeste Vlaminge nie regtig
omgee nie.
Hoekom is die Vlaams Blok dan so suksesvol ? Hulle kry baie stemme in groot
stede soos bv. Antwerpen (33 %), Gent (30%), Mechelen (ook êrens in die 30
%) - omdat hulle 'n baie strikte vreemdelingepolitiek verkondig. In daardie
stede kry jy baie Marokkane en Turke en hul kinders. Nou is die Vlaminge
(ek's jammer om dit te moet sê, maar dit is so) baie wantrouig teenoor
iedereen wat nie wit is nie. Daar word dus nogal gediskrimineer teenoor die
vreemdelinge (of eks-vreemdelinge, want baie van die kinders - wat al
volwasse is - het die Belgiese nasionaliteit). Hulle kry moeilik werk, hulle
word dikwels toegang geweier by 'discotheken' (wat is die Afrikaanse woord
hiervoor ?), hulle word meer deur die polisie gekontroleer, ens, ens. Daar's
blykbaar ook meer kleine kriminaliteit wat deur daardie groep gepleeg word
(veral diefstal) - ek sê nou net wat ek in die pers daaroor lees en hoor.
Ons was nog nooit deur vreemdelinge besteel nie, maar wel al drie keer deur
Vlaminge :-)). Die Vlaams Blok wil o.a. baie strenger teenoor hulle optree
en so kry hulle baie stemme van mense wat bang is.
Die VB is natuurlik ook nog 'n Vlaamse nasionalistiese party, maar ek dink
nie dat daardie deel van hul programma vir hulle hul meeste stemme oplewer
nie. Daar's ook nog 'n klomp mense wat vir hulle 'n soort protesstem gee -
hulle is nie tevrede met die vorige regering nie en uit protes daarteen stem
hulle vir die Blok, alhoewel hulle baie goed besef dat die Blok nooit sal
regeer nie (hulle word in die pers min of meer soos die verpersoonliking van
die duiwel afgeskilder !). Wat nasionalisme betref, streef die Blok die
onafhanklikheid van Vlaandere na. Hulle verteenwoordig ook al die
tradisionele christelike waardes.
Ek ken niemand in my omgewing wat vir die Blok stem, of anders durf hulle
dit nie te sê nie :-). Maar waar ons bly, is die Blok minder suksesvol
(Wes-Vlaandere, waar die CVP nog steeds die grootste party is -
Wes-Vlaandere is die provinsie van die boere en hulle stem tradisioneel vir
die CVP). Hierdie keer het die CVP so baie stemme verloor oor die
dioksiene-krisis wat die land net enkele dae voor die verkiesings getref het
! En as jy aan 'n Belg se kos vat ... !!!
Mens, nou het ek baie geskryf ! Hoop dis 'n bietjie duidelik, want die
Belgiese politiek is baie ingewikkeld - gelukkig is die Belge 'n vreedsaam
volk, anders het ons lankal Kosovaarse toestande geken !

Groete.
Hilda.

--
E- mail :gervaas...@ping.be en hilda....@ping.be
Homepage: http://www.ping.be/hilda-gervaas en
http://www.oocities.org/SoHo/Square/7005 en
http://myhuisie.webjump.com en
http://www.oocities.org/EnchantedForest/Tower/9054
Re: afrikaans [boodskap #26291 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Di, 14 September 1999 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Thys de Wet  is tans af-lyn  Thys de Wet
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Hallo Sebastian

Here in the Cape Town area we speak Afrikaasn and English as the two major languages. isiXhosa is also used by the majority of black people.
Afrikaans is spoken trhough the whole country, and is not reserved to just certain geographical areas. The indegenous african languages such as isiZulu, isiXhosa, Sesotho, Setswana and others are more geograpicaly spoken.
You would find that English and Afrikaans is spoken right throughout South Africa.

Viellecht kanst auch Deutsch probieren, aber nicht viele leute sprechen Deutsch hier im züd-afrika.

Grüße aus Züd Afrika!
sebastian patscheck wrote in message ...
Sorry I don´t speak afrikaans,
could you tell me in which area of your country you speak afrikaans, which language you speak in Cape Town?
Thank you very much.
Sebastian, Germany
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28800 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Vr, 21 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Njs  is tans af-lyn  Njs
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Even in South Africa we switch from Afrikaans to English
as required.

In some of the cities in SA English is used more oftenly used
than Afrikaans. For me as a student and with English as
second language it's difficult but one get used to it.

Any more questions e-mail me at

nj_sc...@yahoo.co.za

NJS

> well as Afrikaans and, ideally, have moved from South Africa to either
> America/England/Australia/etc.
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28801 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Vr, 21 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
ferdinand  is tans af-lyn  ferdinand
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On 21 Jan 2000 06:17:08 GMT, "Njs" wrote:
[color=blue]<>Even in South Africa we switch from Afrikaans to English
> as required.
>
> In some of the cities in SA English is used more oftenly used
> than Afrikaans. For me as a student and with English as
> second language it's difficult but one get used to it.>>>

Yes I can confirm that.
I live in SA and we are Afrikaans. My kids go to an English medium
school (the closest best school) but we speak only Afrikaans at home.
They thus switch from early age.
I have found that at times their Afrikaans gets very polluted with
English words as their friends are English. They are early teens, But
if I insist of pure Afrikaans they respond.
I read a lot in English, watch a lot of English TV and speak a lot of
English in my work and to some friends.
But I write in Afrikaans (I am a journalist) and speak only Afrikaans
to most of my friends, my fellow workers and most of my my family.
Both languages are pretty much ingrained in me and switching is no
effort. I did not have good English teachers when I was young, though,
and my English is not gramatically on the same level as my Afrikaans.
When all is stripped, I suppose Afrikaans is easier as it is my mother
tongue.
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28802 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Vr, 21 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Cailean L. Shearer  is tans af-lyn  Cailean L. Shearer
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Junior Lid
Hi!

Thank you so much for your help!!!! I really appreciate it! Is it alright
if I email you further with questions, etc. soon? I am writing this for a
paper due in March, and will be submitting the proposal soon.

OH and I'm posting this because your email address(es) were returned to
me! Is there a better one I can use?

Thank you!!!!
Cailean Shearer

> Even in South Africa we switch from Afrikaans to English
> as required.
>
> In some of the cities in SA English is used more oftenly used
> than Afrikaans. For me as a student and with English as
> second language it's difficult but one get used to it.
>
> Any more questions e-mail me at
>
> nj_sc...@yahoo.co.za
>
> NJS
>
>> well as Afrikaans and, ideally, have moved from South Africa to either
>> America/England/Australia/etc.
>
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28814 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Sa, 22 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Willem-Jan Markerink  is tans af-lyn  Willem-Jan Markerink
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squi...@echelon.alias.net (Street Sweeper) wrote:
> Afrikaans is barstardised language, comprised of a cocktail of
> stolen linguistic bases.
>
> Afrikaans is the language of the opressor in South Africa
> (Although many Afrikaners will dispute this). They were
> responsible for despicable and unmentionable atrocities against
> the rightful black inhabitants of South Africa, and for this
> reason should be shunned.
>
> Perhaps you would like to ask your parents (who sound like they
> have relegated this despised language to the scrap heap) about
> the antics of the Afrikaners.
>
> You may have a rosy picture of the Afrikaans language, but be
> aware that many of the speakers of the language are as guilty as
> the WW2 Germans who constructed the gas chambers.
>
> Don't take my word for it - ask and Black person in SAfrican and
> they will confirm my assertion.
>
> Street Sweeper

Dag anoniem eekhoorntje.
Ik zag laatst op TV een eekhoorn die kon waterskieen....maar had een hekel
aan water....zo'n schijtert lijk jij me ook....veel kabaal, maar weinig
drijfvermogen.

Btw wist je dat de term Afrikaander/Afrikaans voor het eerst gebruikt werd
in een gemengd gezin? Jouw bovenstaand geneuzel is daarom nog dommer dan de
Duitse taal gelijk te stellen aan de Nazi's.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
FROM:
SUBJECT: Wie mag Afrikaner genoem word?
DATE: 10 May 1999 18:15:39 GMT
ORGANIZATION: IGS - Information Gateway Services
NEWSGROUPS: soc.culture.south-africa.afrikaans

Ek kry die volgende informasie uit 'n brief geskryf
aan De Kat (Junie 1997) geskryf deur W.W. Odendaal
van Lyttelton:

" 'n Ruk gelede het ek gekyk na die oorsprong van
die term "Afrikaner." Dis vir die eerste keer opge-
teken in die amptelike stukke van die Kaap deur
landdros Starrenburg van Stellenbosch na aanlei-
ding van 'n gebeurtenis op Sondag 6 Maart 1707.
Op daardie dag het vier mans uitbundig opgetree
in die ou meule van Stellenbosch. Starrenburg het
daarop afgekom en... Hendrik Bibouw.. met sy
rottang gestreep, waarop Hendrik Bibouw uitgeroep
het: "Ik ben een Africaander" om daarmee aan te dui
dat hy nie die gesag van die landdros erken nie...Die
landdros was van die Nederlande en hy was van
Afrika....
Hendrik was die oudste seun van Diedloff Biebouw,
afkomstig uit Meckelenburg, wat in 1699 getroud is
met Willemyntjies Adriaanse de Wit van Rotterdam.
Diedloff se oudste kind, Susanna, was egter die dogter
van die slavin Diana, afkomstig uit Madagaskar. Sy
het wel deel van die familie gebly as oudste dogter.
In hierdie gesin is daar baie oor nasionale gevoelens
gepraat. Hulle het gevoel dat hulle nie van Nederland
was nie, maar van Afrika. Die woord "Africaander"
was 'n huishoudelike term...
Wat baie interessant is, is dat Susanna in vandag se
terme 'n Kleurling was en Hendrik 'n blanke. En hoewel
dit die blanke Hendrik was wie se uitroep dat hy 'n Afri-
kaner is die eerste in die geskiedenis geboekstaaf is, was
dit die Kleurling Susanna wat agter die woord self was.
Dis histories verkeerd om die term "Afrikaner" aan
kleur te koppel... Die kleurlinge en blankes het..aanspraak
op die term "Afrikaner," maar die kleurling het 'n klein
voorsprong."

Gloudina Bouwer

--
Bye,

Willem-Jan Markerink

The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand


[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28815 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Sa, 22 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
ferdinand  is tans af-lyn  ferdinand
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On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 14:32:40 +0100, Thorsten Mueller wrote:
[color=blue]<<>Street Sweeper wrote:
>
>> Afrikaans is barstardised language, comprised of a cocktail of
>> stolen linguistic bases.
>
>> Yawn!< Yes, we know, it's a primitive language, blah, blah... English
> however is one of the purest languages in the world as its speakers
> would never dare to borrow anything from languages like French, Latin,
> German or Ancient Greek.>>

Or from Afrikaans. Like stoep or veld or trek and so on.
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28816 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Sa, 22 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
ferdinand  is tans af-lyn  ferdinand
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On 21 Jan 2000 21:25:12 -0000, squi...@echelon.alias.net (Street Sweeper) wrote:
<<You may have a rosy picture of the Afrikaans language, but be
> aware that many of the speakers of the language are as guilty as
> the WW2 Germans who constructed the gas chambers.>>

Yeah. Of course. Like Beyers Naude and Bram Fischer and Alan Boesak
and Cheryl Carolus and Carl Niehaus and Derek Hanekom and so on and so
on.
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28817 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Sa, 22 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
PAT  is tans af-lyn  PAT
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Ferdi en ander:

Ek het n vae vermoede dat "street sweeper" of "secret squirrel"
en die drie ander aliases wat hy gebruik n man/vrou is so reg
uit die boek "Triomf" . n Armblanke niemand met n hengse tjip op
sy skouer. Elke keer as hier nuwe mense op die groep kom, dan
kom gooi hy n klip in die bos, en elke keer
antwoord ons soos simpeltons vir hom, en probeer onsself en ons
taal verdedig. In die tussentyd praat hy/sy Afrikaans nogal
heel goed, maar ons antwoord hom elke keer in Engels.

Kan ons hom net ignoreer? Dalk sal hy verdwyn as hy sien ons
raak nie elke keer rooi van woede vir sy onsinnige uitlatings
nie.

Pat

Ferdi Greyling wrote in article
...
> On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 14:32:40 +0100, Thorsten Mueller
> wrote:
>
> >
>>> Afrikaans is barstardised language, comprised of a cocktail of
>>> stolen linguistic bases.
>>
>>> Yawn!< Yes, we know, it's a primitive language, blah,
blah... English
>> however is one of the purest languages in the world as its speakers
>> would never dare to borrow anything from languages like French, Latin,
>> German or Ancient Greek.>>
>
> Or from Afrikaans. Like stoep or veld or trek and so on.
>
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28818 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Sa, 22 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Thorsten Müller  is tans af-lyn  Thorsten Müller
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Street Sweeper wrote:

> Afrikaans is barstardised language, comprised of a cocktail of
> stolen linguistic bases.

> Yawn!< Yes, we know, it's a primitive language, blah, blah... English
however is one of the purest languages in the world as its speakers
would never dare to borrow anything from languages like French, Latin,
German or Ancient Greek.

> You may have a rosy picture of the Afrikaans language, but be
> aware that many of the speakers of the language are as guilty as
> the WW2 Germans who constructed the gas chambers.

I tell you, any Jew would demand an apology for this statement.

Thorsten
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28823 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] So, 23 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Thorsten Müller  is tans af-lyn  Thorsten Müller
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PAT wrote:

> Kan ons hom net ignoreer? Dalk sal hy verdwyn as hy sien ons
> raak nie elke keer rooi van woede vir sy onsinnige uitlatings
> nie.

Ek is nie rooi van woede nie. Inteendeel, ek vind ou Squirrel se bydraes
nogal snaaks. Die dinge wat hy skryf is só klaarblyklik dom dat ek nie
meer kan glo dat dit sy erns is nie. Ek het amper van my stoel geval in
die lag toe ek sy laatste plasing gelees het, dis ook die rede daarvoor
waarom ek dié keer gereageer het, gewoonlik ignoreer ek hom maar.
Waarskynlik is dit net so amusant vir hom om ons "ernstige" reaksies te
lees... hmmm, of dalk nie...?

Thorsten
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28824 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] So, 23 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Ronnie Clark  is tans af-lyn  Ronnie Clark
Boodskappe: 6
Geregistreer: Oktober 1999
Karma: 0
Junior Lid
> Afrikaans is barstardised language, comprised of a cocktail of
> stolen linguistic bases.
>
> Afrikaans is the language of the opressor in South Africa
> (Although many Afrikaners will dispute this). They were
> responsible for despicable and unmentionable atrocities against
> the rightful black inhabitants of South Africa, and for this
> reason should be shunned.
>
> Perhaps you would like to ask your parents (who sound like they
> have relegated this despised language to the scrap heap) about
> the antics of the Afrikaners.
>
> You may have a rosy picture of the Afrikaans language, but be
> aware that many of the speakers of the language are as guilty as
> the WW2 Germans who constructed the gas chambers.
>
> Don't take my word for it - ask and Black person in SAfrican and
> they will confirm my assertion.
>
> Street Sweeper

Afrikaans is just a language. And so is English. All languages borrow from
each other, since that is how language started in the first place.

And are you telling me that no English speaking white in South Africa ever
had anything to do with Separatism?

Ronnie
--
And now for some gratuitous spam:
Get paid to surf the net!
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=FJE591
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28826 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Ma, 24 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
lou[1]  is tans af-lyn  lou[1]
Boodskappe: 579
Geregistreer: Januarie 1999
Karma: 0
Senior Lid
Ferdi Greyling wrote:
> . My kids go to an English medium
> school (the closest best school) but we speak only Afrikaans at home.

Ja well no fine! Ek dink dat geen verdere kommentaar nodig is nie.

Sela!
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28834 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Di, 25 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
PAT  is tans af-lyn  PAT
Boodskappe: 141
Geregistreer: April 1999
Karma: 0
Senior Lid
Agge nee Wim, nou vat jy arme Ronnie lelik aan die gesig jong!
Dis nie HY wat al daardie goed geskryf het nie, wel ons vriend
van
Triomf, oftewel skwirrel. Ronnie het op sy manier ons probeer
verdedig, en toe lees jy dit verkeerd, en nou weet ek nie......

Pat

Wim Scheepers wrote in article
...
>
>
> Ronnie Clark wrote:
>
>>> Afrikaans is barstardised language, comprised of a cocktail of
>>> stolen linguistic bases.
>>>
>>> Afrikaans is the language of the opressor in South Africa
>>> (Although many Afrikaners will dispute this). They were
>>> responsible for despicable and unmentionable atrocities against
>>> the rightful black inhabitants of South Africa, and for this
>>> reason should be shunned.
>>>
>>> Perhaps you would like to ask your parents (who sound like they
>>> have relegated this despised language to the scrap heap) about
>>> the antics of the Afrikaners.
>>>
>>> You may have a rosy picture of the Afrikaans language, but be
>>> aware that many of the speakers of the language are as guilty as
>>> the WW2 Germans who constructed the gas chambers.
>>>
>>> Don't take my word for it - ask and Black person in SAfrican and
>>> they will confirm my assertion.
>>>
>>> Street Sweeper
>>
>> Afrikaans is just a language. And so is English. All languages borrow from
>> each other, since that is how language started in the first place.
>>
>> And are you telling me that no English speaking white in South Africa ever
>> had anything to do with Separatism?
>>
>> Ronnie
>
> Hello Ronnie,
>
> Since you seem to be the local authority on the Afrikaans language and it's
> origins I assume that you will be able to "unbastardise" words like
> "sypaadjie", "blesbok" and numerous other examples.
>
> Undoubtedly a man of your ability will be able to translate the following few
> Latin examples into YOUR language of choice.
>
> differentia - difference
> littera - letter
> materia - material
> vindicta - vindicate
> natura - nature
>
> Recognise anything? The mighty English language seems to be "bastardised" as
> well.
> Your next assignment is to unbastardise the English translations- (the ones in
> the righthand column) Kindly return the "stolen" words to the Latin language.
> If / When you encounter any problem consult somebody knowledgeable.
>
> As for your political convictions: Before you opened your mouth everybody
> wondered whether you are a fool, now we know. I wish you more insight in
> whatever you are studying now.
>
> U sinsbegogelende begrip is werklik asemrowend.
>
> AFRIKANER HUGGER
>
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28835 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Di, 25 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Wim Scheepers  is tans af-lyn  Wim Scheepers
Boodskappe: 5
Geregistreer: Januarie 2000
Karma: 0
Junior Lid
Ronnie Clark wrote:

>> Afrikaans is barstardised language, comprised of a cocktail of
>> stolen linguistic bases.
>>
>> Afrikaans is the language of the opressor in South Africa
>> (Although many Afrikaners will dispute this). They were
>> responsible for despicable and unmentionable atrocities against
>> the rightful black inhabitants of South Africa, and for this
>> reason should be shunned.
>>
>> Perhaps you would like to ask your parents (who sound like they
>> have relegated this despised language to the scrap heap) about
>> the antics of the Afrikaners.
>>
>> You may have a rosy picture of the Afrikaans language, but be
>> aware that many of the speakers of the language are as guilty as
>> the WW2 Germans who constructed the gas chambers.
>>
>> Don't take my word for it - ask and Black person in SAfrican and
>> they will confirm my assertion.
>>
>> Street Sweeper
>
> Afrikaans is just a language. And so is English. All languages borrow from
> each other, since that is how language started in the first place.
>
> And are you telling me that no English speaking white in South Africa ever
> had anything to do with Separatism?
>
> Ronnie

Hello Ronnie,

Since you seem to be the local authority on the Afrikaans language and it's
origins I assume that you will be able to "unbastardise" words like
"sypaadjie", "blesbok" and numerous other examples.

Undoubtedly a man of your ability will be able to translate the following few
Latin examples into YOUR language of choice.

differentia - difference
littera - letter
materia - material
vindicta - vindicate
natura - nature

Recognise anything? The mighty English language seems to be "bastardised" as
well.
Your next assignment is to unbastardise the English translations- (the ones in
the righthand column) Kindly return the "stolen" words to the Latin language.
If / When you encounter any problem consult somebody knowledgeable.

As for your political convictions: Before you opened your mouth everybody
wondered whether you are a fool, now we know. I wish you more insight in
whatever you are studying now.

U sinsbegogelende begrip is werklik asemrowend.

AFRIKANER HUGGER
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28836 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Di, 25 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Alwyn Nel  is tans af-lyn  Alwyn Nel
Boodskappe: 174
Geregistreer: Maart 2006
Karma: 0
Senior Lid
Doodreg Wim, geen probleem nie. En terloops, jy het dit darem baie, baie
goed gesê hoor!

Alwyn - Perth se wêreld

"Wim Scheepers" skryf in boodskap news:388D9900.A45FC8D6@golfgame.co.za...
> OOPS ! Jammer aan almal wat gegrief voel. Ek is seker Ronnie weet aan
> wie my briefie gerig is. Wie is die ander knaap in elk geval?
>
> Wim
>
> PAT wrote:
>
>> Agge nee Wim, nou vat jy arme Ronnie lelik aan die gesig jong!
>> Dis nie HY wat al daardie goed geskryf het nie, wel ons vriend
>> van
>> Triomf, oftewel skwirrel. Ronnie het op sy manier ons probeer
>> verdedig, en toe lees jy dit verkeerd, en nou weet ek nie......
>>
>> Pat
>>
>> Wim Scheepers wrote in article
>> ...
>>>
>>>
>>> Ronnie Clark wrote:
>>>
>>>> >Afrikaans is barstardised language, comprised of a cocktail
>> of
>>>> >stolen linguistic bases.
>>>> >
>>>> >Afrikaans is the language of the opressor in South Africa
>>>> >(Although many Afrikaners will dispute this). They were
>>>> >responsible for despicable and unmentionable atrocities
>> against
>>>> >the rightful black inhabitants of South Africa, and for
>> this
>>>> >reason should be shunned.
>>>> >
>>>> >Perhaps you would like to ask your parents (who sound like
>> they
>>>> >have relegated this despised language to the scrap heap)
>> about
>>>> >the antics of the Afrikaners.
>>>> >
>>>> >You may have a rosy picture of the Afrikaans language, but
>> be
>>>> >aware that many of the speakers of the language are as
>> guilty as
>>>> >the WW2 Germans who constructed the gas chambers.
>>>> >
>>>> >Don't take my word for it - ask and Black person in
>> SAfrican and
>>>> >they will confirm my assertion.
>>>> >
>>>> >Street Sweeper
>>>>
>>>> Afrikaans is just a language. And so is English. All
>> languages borrow from
>>>> each other, since that is how language started in the first
>> place.
>>>>
>>>> And are you telling me that no English speaking white in
>> South Africa ever
>>>> had anything to do with Separatism?
>>>>
>>>> Ronnie
>>>
>>> Hello Ronnie,
>>>
>>> Since you seem to be the local authority on the Afrikaans
>> language and it's
>>> origins I assume that you will be able to "unbastardise" words
>> like
>>> "sypaadjie", "blesbok" and numerous other examples.
>>>
>>> Undoubtedly a man of your ability will be able to translate
>> the following few
>>> Latin examples into YOUR language of choice.
>>>
>>> differentia - difference
>>> littera - letter
>>> materia - material
>>> vindicta - vindicate
>>> natura - nature
>>>
>>> Recognise anything? The mighty English language seems to be
>> "bastardised" as
>>> well.
>>> Your next assignment is to unbastardise the English
>> translations- (the ones in
>>> the righthand column) Kindly return the "stolen" words to the
>> Latin language.
>>> If / When you encounter any problem consult somebody
>> knowledgeable.
>>>
>>> As for your political convictions: Before you opened your
>> mouth everybody
>>> wondered whether you are a fool, now we know. I wish you more
>> insight in
>>> whatever you are studying now.
>>>
>>> U sinsbegogelende begrip is werklik asemrowend.
>>>
>>> AFRIKANER HUGGER
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28837 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Di, 25 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Wim Scheepers  is tans af-lyn  Wim Scheepers
Boodskappe: 5
Geregistreer: Januarie 2000
Karma: 0
Junior Lid
Ronnie Clark wrote:

>> Afrikaans is barstardised language, comprised of a cocktail of
>> stolen linguistic bases.
>>
>> Afrikaans is the language of the opressor in South Africa
>> (Although many Afrikaners will dispute this). They were
>> responsible for despicable and unmentionable atrocities against
>> the rightful black inhabitants of South Africa, and for this
>> reason should be shunned.
>>
>> Perhaps you would like to ask your parents (who sound like they
>> have relegated this despised language to the scrap heap) about
>> the antics of the Afrikaners.
>>
>> You may have a rosy picture of the Afrikaans language, but be
>> aware that many of the speakers of the language are as guilty as
>> the WW2 Germans who constructed the gas chambers.
>>
>> Don't take my word for it - ask and Black person in SAfrican and
>> they will confirm my assertion.
>>
>> Street Sweeper
>
> Afrikaans is just a language. And so is English. All languages borrow from
> each other, since that is how language started in the first place.
>
> And are you telling me that no English speaking white in South Africa ever
> had anything to do with Separatism?
>
> Ronnie

Hello Ronnie,

Since you seem to be the local authority on the Afrikaans language and it's
origins I assume that you will be able to "unbastardise" words like
"sypaadjie", "blesbok" and numerous other examples.

Undoubtedly a man of your ability will be able to translate the following few
Latin examples into YOUR language of choice.

differentia - difference
littera - letter
materia - material
vindicta - vindicate
natura - nature

Recognise anything? The mighty English language seems to be "bastardised" as
well.
Your next assignment is to unbastardise the English translations- (the ones in
the righthand column) Kindly return the "stolen" words to the Latin language.
If / When you encounter any problem consult somebody knowledgeable.

As for your political convictions: Before you opened your mouth everybody
wondered whether you are a fool, now we know. I wish you more insight in
whatever you are studying now.

U sinsbegogelende begrip is werklik asemrowend.

AFRIKANER HUGGER
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28838 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Di, 25 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Wim Scheepers  is tans af-lyn  Wim Scheepers
Boodskappe: 5
Geregistreer: Januarie 2000
Karma: 0
Junior Lid
OOPS ! Jammer aan almal wat gegrief voel. Ek is seker Ronnie weet aan
wie my briefie gerig is. Wie is die ander knaap in elk geval?

Wim

PAT wrote:

> Agge nee Wim, nou vat jy arme Ronnie lelik aan die gesig jong!
> Dis nie HY wat al daardie goed geskryf het nie, wel ons vriend
> van
> Triomf, oftewel skwirrel. Ronnie het op sy manier ons probeer
> verdedig, en toe lees jy dit verkeerd, en nou weet ek nie......
>
> Pat
>
> Wim Scheepers wrote in article
> ...
>>
>>
>> Ronnie Clark wrote:
>>
>>>> Afrikaans is barstardised language, comprised of a cocktail
> of
>>>> stolen linguistic bases.
>>>>
>>>> Afrikaans is the language of the opressor in South Africa
>>>> (Although many Afrikaners will dispute this). They were
>>>> responsible for despicable and unmentionable atrocities
> against
>>>> the rightful black inhabitants of South Africa, and for
> this
>>>> reason should be shunned.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps you would like to ask your parents (who sound like
> they
>>>> have relegated this despised language to the scrap heap)
> about
>>>> the antics of the Afrikaners.
>>>>
>>>> You may have a rosy picture of the Afrikaans language, but
> be
>>>> aware that many of the speakers of the language are as
> guilty as
>>>> the WW2 Germans who constructed the gas chambers.
>>>>
>>>> Don't take my word for it - ask and Black person in
> SAfrican and
>>>> they will confirm my assertion.
>>>>
>>>> Street Sweeper
>>>
>>> Afrikaans is just a language. And so is English. All
> languages borrow from
>>> each other, since that is how language started in the first
> place.
>>>
>>> And are you telling me that no English speaking white in
> South Africa ever
>>> had anything to do with Separatism?
>>>
>>> Ronnie
>>
>> Hello Ronnie,
>>
>> Since you seem to be the local authority on the Afrikaans
> language and it's
>> origins I assume that you will be able to "unbastardise" words
> like
>> "sypaadjie", "blesbok" and numerous other examples.
>>
>> Undoubtedly a man of your ability will be able to translate
> the following few
>> Latin examples into YOUR language of choice.
>>
>> differentia - difference
>> littera - letter
>> materia - material
>> vindicta - vindicate
>> natura - nature
>>
>> Recognise anything? The mighty English language seems to be
> "bastardised" as
>> well.
>> Your next assignment is to unbastardise the English
> translations- (the ones in
>> the righthand column) Kindly return the "stolen" words to the
> Latin language.
>> If / When you encounter any problem consult somebody
> knowledgeable.
>>
>> As for your political convictions: Before you opened your
> mouth everybody
>> wondered whether you are a fool, now we know. I wish you more
> insight in
>> whatever you are studying now.
>>
>> U sinsbegogelende begrip is werklik asemrowend.
>>
>> AFRIKANER HUGGER
>>
>>
>>
>>
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28839 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Di, 25 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Wim Scheepers  is tans af-lyn  Wim Scheepers
Boodskappe: 5
Geregistreer: Januarie 2000
Karma: 0
Junior Lid
Ronnie Clark wrote:

>> Afrikaans is barstardised language, comprised of a cocktail of
>> stolen linguistic bases.
>>
>> Afrikaans is the language of the opressor in South Africa
>> (Although many Afrikaners will dispute this). They were
>> responsible for despicable and unmentionable atrocities against
>> the rightful black inhabitants of South Africa, and for this
>> reason should be shunned.
>>
>> Perhaps you would like to ask your parents (who sound like they
>> have relegated this despised language to the scrap heap) about
>> the antics of the Afrikaners.
>>
>> You may have a rosy picture of the Afrikaans language, but be
>> aware that many of the speakers of the language are as guilty as
>> the WW2 Germans who constructed the gas chambers.
>>
>> Don't take my word for it - ask and Black person in SAfrican and
>> they will confirm my assertion.
>>
>> Street Sweeper
>
> Afrikaans is just a language. And so is English. All languages borrow from
> each other, since that is how language started in the first place.
>
> And are you telling me that no English speaking white in South Africa ever
> had anything to do with Separatism?
>
> Ronnie

Hello Ronnie,

Since you seem to be the local authority on the Afrikaans language and it's
origins I assume that you will be able to "unbastardise" words like
"sypaadjie", "blesbok" and numerous other examples.

Undoubtedly a man of your ability will be able to translate the following few
Latin examples into YOUR language of choice.

differentia - difference
littera - letter
materia - material
vindicta - vindicate
natura - nature

Recognise anything? The mighty English language seems to be "bastardised" as
well.
Your next assignment is to unbastardise the English translations- (the ones in
the righthand column) Kindly return the "stolen" words to the Latin language.
If / When you encounter any problem consult somebody knowledgeable. In line
with your argument you should now relegate English to the scrap heap.

As for your political convictions: Before you opened your mouth everybody
wondered whether you are a fool, now we know. I wish you more insight in
whatever you are studying now.

U sinsbegogelende begrip is werklik asemrowend.

AFRIKANER HUGGER
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28840 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Di, 25 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Ronnie Clark  is tans af-lyn  Ronnie Clark
Boodskappe: 6
Geregistreer: Oktober 1999
Karma: 0
Junior Lid
> Hello Ronnie,
>
> Since you seem to be the local authority on the Afrikaans language and it's
> origins I assume that you will be able to "unbastardise" words like
> "sypaadjie", "blesbok" and numerous other examples.
>
> Undoubtedly a man of your ability will be able to translate the following few
> Latin examples into YOUR language of choice.
>
> differentia - difference
> littera - letter
> materia - material
> vindicta - vindicate
> natura - nature
>
> Recognise anything? The mighty English language seems to be "bastardised" as
> well.
> Your next assignment is to unbastardise the English translations- (the ones in
> the righthand column) Kindly return the "stolen" words to the Latin language.
> If / When you encounter any problem consult somebody knowledgeable.

At what point did I say that English was unbastardised? Re-read my post: I
said "All languages borrow from each other" - English probably more so than
others, given that the country has been invaded by almost every country with
it's own language in the course of the past two millennia....

> As for your political convictions: Before you opened your mouth everybody
> wondered whether you are a fool, now we know. I wish you more insight in
> whatever you are studying now.

As for my political convictions, I have none, which is why I asked a
QUESTION (not make a statement of fact): "And are you telling me that no
English speaking white in South Africa ever had anything to do with
Separatism?"

> U sinsbegogelende begrip is werklik asemrowend.

I'd like you to show me where my idea is either delusional or
breath-taking - maybe you have just plain confused my post for the one I was
replying to.

Ronnie
--
And now for some gratuitous spam:
Get paid to surf the net!
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=FJE591

>
> AFRIKANER HUGGER
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28843 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Wo, 26 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Wim Scheepers  is tans af-lyn  Wim Scheepers
Boodskappe: 5
Geregistreer: Januarie 2000
Karma: 0
Junior Lid
Ronnie,

my sincere apologies. I had that other what's-his-name in mind.

Wim

Ronnie Clark wrote:

>> Hello Ronnie,
>>
>> Since you seem to be the local authority on the Afrikaans language and it's
>> origins I assume that you will be able to "unbastardise" words like
>> "sypaadjie", "blesbok" and numerous other examples.
>>
>> Undoubtedly a man of your ability will be able to translate the following
> few
>> Latin examples into YOUR language of choice.
>>
>> differentia - difference
>> littera - letter
>> materia - material
>> vindicta - vindicate
>> natura - nature
>>
>> Recognise anything? The mighty English language seems to be "bastardised"
> as
>> well.
>> Your next assignment is to unbastardise the English translations- (the ones
> in
>> the righthand column) Kindly return the "stolen" words to the Latin
> language.
>> If / When you encounter any problem consult somebody knowledgeable.
>
> At what point did I say that English was unbastardised? Re-read my post: I
> said "All languages borrow from each other" - English probably more so than
> others, given that the country has been invaded by almost every country with
> it's own language in the course of the past two millennia....
>
>> As for your political convictions: Before you opened your mouth everybody
>> wondered whether you are a fool, now we know. I wish you more insight in
>> whatever you are studying now.
>
> As for my political convictions, I have none, which is why I asked a
> QUESTION (not make a statement of fact): "And are you telling me that no
> English speaking white in South Africa ever had anything to do with
> Separatism?"
>
>> U sinsbegogelende begrip is werklik asemrowend.
>
> I'd like you to show me where my idea is either delusional or
> breath-taking - maybe you have just plain confused my post for the one I was
> replying to.
>
> Ronnie
> --
> And now for some gratuitous spam:
> Get paid to surf the net!
> http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=FJE591
>
>>
>> AFRIKANER HUGGER
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28857 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Vr, 28 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
PAT  is tans af-lyn  PAT
Boodskappe: 141
Geregistreer: April 1999
Karma: 0
Senior Lid
Gloudina:

Dit is interessant wat jy vertel. Waar kom ons New Orleans
Cajuns in die prentjie wat betref die Acadians? Ek dog dat
hulle almal afgetrek het, en afgestig het van hulle Kanadese
voorouers, of het ek dit mis?

Pat

@home.com wrote in article ...

christopher f wrote:

> I'm working on an academic treatise which compares the social,
> political and historical contexts in the development of Afrikaans and
> Québecois French. There are some interesting similarities, but also
> some huge differences. The work may take years.

This is extremely interesting to me, of course, since when I
look
acrossthe Ottawa River from our condo I see the province of
Quebec on
the
other side. I have always thought that the militancy of the
Quebecers
and the apartheidsregime-afrikaners could be equated.
Do you also give attention to the Acadian French of the
Canadian
Maritimes? On a linguistic basis, there is more similarities
there
than between Afrikaans en Quebec French. Quebec French people
tend to look down on Acadian French. The truth is that Acadian
French has a much larger vocabulary of French words than Quebec
French (because they have seventeenth century French words that
have died out in modern French. ) I always tell Acadians that
they
should have declared their language a separate language from
French, just like Afrikaans.

Gloudina Bouwer

----------
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28858 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Vr, 28 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Anoniem
Oorspronklik gepos deur: @home.com

christopher f wrote:

> To call a language "bastardised," and further to attach some sort of
> politically motivated judgement to that characterisation is indeed a
> reflection of ignorance, certainly of linguistic ignorance, and most
> probably of political ignorance as well.

Thank you Christopher. You hit the nail on the head. Thank you
for an interesting linguistic analysis.

G. Bouwer
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28859 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Vr, 28 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Anoniem
Oorspronklik gepos deur: @home.com

christopher f wrote:

> I'm working on an academic treatise which compares the social,
> political and historical contexts in the development of Afrikaans and
> Québecois French. There are some interesting similarities, but also
> some huge differences. The work may take years.

This is extremely interesting to me, of course, since when I look
acrossthe Ottawa River from our condo I see the province of Quebec on
the
other side. I have always thought that the militancy of the Quebecers
and the apartheidsregime-afrikaners could be equated.
Do you also give attention to the Acadian French of the Canadian
Maritimes? On a linguistic basis, there is more similarities there
than between Afrikaans en Quebec French. Quebec French people
tend to look down on Acadian French. The truth is that Acadian
French has a much larger vocabulary of French words than Quebec
French (because they have seventeenth century French words that
have died out in modern French. ) I always tell Acadians that they
should have declared their language a separate language from
French, just like Afrikaans.

Gloudina Bouwer
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28860 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Vr, 28 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
christopher f  is tans af-lyn  christopher f
Boodskappe: 6
Geregistreer: Oktober 1999
Karma: 0
Junior Lid
The question I start with is this: What were the forces which drove
Afrikaans to become a language separate and distinct from Dutch? And
similarly: What were the forces which kept Québecois so close to standard
"French" French? Obviously there is a disconnection between the French
used by Quécec's officialdom, the press and the schools, and the patois
spoken in the streets of Montréal and, especially, the countryside.
Rather than try to follow its own linguistic path, much Québecois
energy is spent in trying to keep the language close to European French,
allowing, of course, for the usual regional variation. The same is not
true in SA. Afrikaans is separate and distinct from standard Dutch, and I
doubt many Afrikaners feel any particular desire to reunite Afrikaans with
Dutch like some long-lost child (contrary to the views of certain
Dutchpersons expressed in these pages). Politics, as I mentioned earlier,
has much to do with the issue. Once Afrikaans was recognised officially,
the power of politics became a force propelling its evolution. If the
Ministère de Culture were to declare Québecois as separate and distinct
from Parisian, I dare say a similar force would begin to shape a new and
distinct Québecois language, which would no doubt begin to sound much more
like the language of the countryside. But other forces were also at work
in SA. The task is to identify them in a way which makes sense in a
socio-linguistic context.
Interestingly enough, that same force is presently at work in Norway,
where the government has been trying for decades to reshape "official"
Norwegian and make is more distinct from the old official Norwegian, which
was indistinguishable from bureaucratic Danish. The process is ongoing,
and results in Norway having two official languages: Bokmål (or,
Dano-Norwegian) and Nynorsk ("New" Norwegian). The new language is drawn
from the countryside, where the uneducated never had the chance to learn
the variety which the government now thinks was "polluted" with Danish.
Language always plays a significant rôle in shaping ethnic identity.
I will have to consider your Acadian neighbours for a while before offering
any thoughts thereon. They were, as I'm certain you know, the source of
our own Cajuns in the swamplands of Louisiana. (A sad story indeed, and
yet another example of British brutality.)

Also, since this is an Afrikaans-language newsgroup (aside from those
occasional incursions by Dutch, Flemish and English), I feel I should cease
and desist from posting long-winded messages in English, lest I offend the
group's core.

Groete, christopher f

@home.com wrote:

> christopher f wrote:
>
>> I'm working on an academic treatise which compares the social,
>> political and historical contexts in the development of Afrikaans and
>> Québecois French. There are some interesting similarities, but also
>> some huge differences. The work may take years.
>
> This is extremely interesting to me, of course, since when I look
> acrossthe Ottawa River from our condo I see the province of Quebec on
> the
> other side. I have always thought that the militancy of the Quebecers
> and the apartheidsregime-afrikaners could be equated.
> Do you also give attention to the Acadian French of the Canadian
> Maritimes? On a linguistic basis, there is more similarities there
> than between Afrikaans en Quebec French. Quebec French people
> tend to look down on Acadian French. The truth is that Acadian
> French has a much larger vocabulary of French words than Quebec
> French (because they have seventeenth century French words that
> have died out in modern French. ) I always tell Acadians that they
> should have declared their language a separate language from
> French, just like Afrikaans.
>
> Gloudina Bouwer
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28861 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Sa, 29 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Anoniem
Oorspronklik gepos deur: @home.com

christopher f wrote:

> Even though you are all so dysfunctional, I stuck with you all,
> and I have

> done so only because I believe in the future of Suid-Afrika,

So vertel vir ons bietjie hoe ons disfunksioneel is.

Gloudina

>
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28862 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #28860] Sa, 29 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Maarten Jansonius  is tans af-lyn  Maarten Jansonius
Boodskappe: 29
Geregistreer: Desember 1999
Karma: 0
Junior Lid
christopher f schreef:
>
> The question I start with is this: What were the forces which drove
> Afrikaans to become a language separate and distinct from Dutch? And
> similarly: What were the forces which kept Québecois so close to
> standard "French" French?

Another interesting, and related issue is the Flemish struggle against
the French language dominance, and how it was decided only in the 70's
that the official language in Flanders was to be Dutch. This led to an
effort in Flanders to 'purify' the local language from French influences
(NL: 'gallicismen'), but also to a tendency to dismiss Flemish varieties
of Dutch as 'dialect', inferior to 'Netherlands' Dutch. Even though
today, the Flemish community has regained its self-confidence in this
matter, debate continues - for example about the use of heavily
Flemish-colored Dutch on television (the Flemish public tv has long
uphold its charter to use only 'standard-Dutch' and to abstain from use
of typically Flemish vocabulary).

Ofcourse, politics were the decisive factor in this matter too. If the
main dispute had been between Flemish and Dutch, Flemish would by now
have been a separate language. However, the main 'opponent' of the
Flemish language has been, and continues to be, the French language (it
sounds kinda silly putting it this way - compare the 'Don Quixotisms'
against Afrikaans ;-) which made the Dutch the natural strategic partner
in the Flemish struggle.

And in the European Union today, the 22 million speakers of Dutch have
to put down their combined weight for their common interests.

Groeten,

Maarten Jansonius
student Taal, Spraak & Informatica (TSI) aan de Katholieke Universiteit
Nijmegen, Nederland.

]
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28863 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Sa, 29 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Anoniem
Oorspronklik gepos deur: @home.com

christopher f wrote:

> Also, since this is an Afrikaans-language newsgroup (aside from those
> occasional incursions by Dutch, Flemish and English), I feel I should
> cease and desist from posting long-winded messages in English, lest I
> offend the group's core.
>

I am sure that nobody will object to this interesting discussion about
Afrikaans being carried on in English.
I am however interested to see you post in Afrikaans too.

Gloudina Bouwer
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28864 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Sa, 29 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
christopher f  is tans af-lyn  christopher f
Boodskappe: 6
Geregistreer: Oktober 1999
Karma: 0
Junior Lid
Ek skryf sowat twee of drie kere 'n week aan 'n vriend wat in Kaapstad woon
en ons gebruik uitsluitend Afrikaans in ons briewe. Nietemin glo ek die
soort Afrikaans wat ek in my persoonlike gespreke met vriende gebruik is
beslis nie dieselfde wat in 'n taalkundige en akademiese omgewing nodig
is. Jy moet verstaan ek lees elke dag die oplyn koerant uit Kaapstad. Ek
lees Afrikaans in elke geval beter as ek kan skryf. Maar julle moet almal
ook aanvaar ek's lief virrie taal en ek doen al's wat ek kan om hom te
leer. Dis net ses maande gelede dat ek begin het om Afrikaans aan te leer.
Daar is net drie universiteite in die westelike VSA wat Afrikaanse kursusse
aanbied. En hoekom vertel ek jou so 'n storie? Want ek hoop jy sal kan
waardeer hoe moeilik dit kan wees vir 'n buitelandse om Afrikaanse bronne te
vind. Ek moet jou miskien ook vertel ek het voor Desember laaste jaar
Afrikaans nooit gehoor nie. Ek het ook sedert vier of vyf maande in
hierdie nuusgroep gelurk. You have all been the source through which I have
been able to acquire Afrikaans. ( Even though you are all so
dysfunctional.) I stuck with you all, and I have done so only because I
believe in the future of Suid-Afrika, I believe that Afrikaans is a
beautiful, vibrant, expressive language, and in no way moribund.
Oukei, ek weet my Afrikaans suig maar dis net ses maande dat ek leer. Gee
my nog 'n jaar en dan sal ek t'rugkom en vir julle almal 'n snotklap gee.
En as ek nog sal leef, hoop ek reisiger se naam in hierdie nuusgroep nooit
weer te sien nie.
OK, Gloudina, nou weet jy hoekom ek nie in Afrikaans gepos het nie.
God bless you all, nonetheless.

Jou Amerikaanse Boertjie.

cf

@home.com wrote:

> christopher f wrote:
>
>> Also, since this is an Afrikaans-language newsgroup (aside from those
>> occasional incursions by Dutch, Flemish and English), I feel I should
>> cease and desist from posting long-winded messages in English, lest I
>> offend the group's core.
>>
>
> I am sure that nobody will object to this interesting discussion about
> Afrikaans being carried on in English.
> I am however interested to see you post in Afrikaans too.
>
> Gloudina Bouwer
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28865 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Sa, 29 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
christopher f  is tans af-lyn  christopher f
Boodskappe: 6
Geregistreer: Oktober 1999
Karma: 0
Junior Lid
Oh, Maarten, Dankie. All of what you tell will go directly into my notes.
What you offer is a bit outside my original thesis question, but it really
interesting, nonetheless. I cannot help but notice your choice of words,
that Nederlands en Vlaams are "strategic partners" in a war against the
French invaders from the south of Belgium.
Before I proceed, I would like to invite you to respond in Dutch or Flemish
or Afrikaans or in whatever language you speak natively. I can read all of
them. Inasmuch as you live in Nijmegen, I assume you speak Dutch natively.
As I have said, language is a huge part of cultural identity. I was not
personally aware of the Flemish plight against the Walloons from the
south. Your contribution gives me yet more to consider. The Belgian
Flemings seem to be fighting for their own cultural identity, perhaps
against all odds. Are we engaged in cultural and linguistic cold wars????
Walloons against Flemings?? Québecois against Anglo-Canadians? Afrikaners
against those who speak English in Suid-Afrika? Americans who speak
English versus those who speak Spanish??
My sense is that these cold wars are real.
The academic task which I have set for myself is to examine two of those,
namely, South Africa and Quebec. But what you tell about Flanders helps me
nonetheless.
The question of Québecois identity, and the status of French, seems
likely to endure. It is a battle to which we in North America have become
all too accustomed. Is there a similar cold war in Suid-Afrika over
Afrikaans versus English??? Ek weet nie; ek woon nie in Suid-Afrika nie.
My sense is that there is.
My sense is, however, also, that Afrikaans is the language of the future
in southern Africa, rather than English. Perhaps this is an expression of
blind faith or of hope. But I think it is also more than that. Yes,
everyone speaks English as a second language. Yet I believe nonetheless
that Afrikaans is the language, rather than English, which will unite
southern Africa. Call me a hopeless optimist. I don't care. Afrikaans is
the future. And this Yank would graag give up his citizenship to make it
come true. If South Africa doesn't make it, none of us will.

Maarten Jansonius wrote:

> christopher f schreef:
>>
>> The question I start with is this: What were the forces which drove
>> Afrikaans to become a language separate and distinct from Dutch? And
>> similarly: What were the forces which kept Québecois so close to
>> standard "French" French?
>
> Another interesting, and related issue is the Flemish struggle against
> the French language dominance, and how it was decided only in the 70's
> that the official language in Flanders was to be Dutch. This led to an
> effort in Flanders to 'purify' the local language from French influences
> (NL: 'gallicismen'), but also to a tendency to dismiss Flemish varieties
> of Dutch as 'dialect', inferior to 'Netherlands' Dutch. Even though
> today, the Flemish community has regained its self-confidence in this
> matter, debate continues - for example about the use of heavily
> Flemish-colored Dutch on television (the Flemish public tv has long
> uphold its charter to use only 'standard-Dutch' and to abstain from use
> of typically Flemish vocabulary).
>
> Ofcourse, politics were the decisive factor in this matter too. If the
> main dispute had been between Flemish and Dutch, Flemish would by now
> have been a separate language. However, the main 'opponent' of the
> Flemish language has been, and continues to be, the French language (it
> sounds kinda silly putting it this way - compare the 'Don Quixotisms'
> against Afrikaans ;-) which made the Dutch the natural strategic partner
> in the Flemish struggle.
>
> And in the European Union today, the 22 million speakers of Dutch have
> to put down their combined weight for their common interests.
>
> Groeten,
>
> Maarten Jansonius
> student Taal, Spraak & Informatica (TSI) aan de Katholieke Universiteit
> Nijmegen, Nederland.
>
> ]
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28868 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #28865] So, 30 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Willem-Jan Markerink  is tans af-lyn  Willem-Jan Markerink
Boodskappe: 331
Geregistreer: Mei 1999
Karma: 0
Senior Lid
In article ,
christopher f wrote:
>
>
> Oh, Maarten, Dankie. All of what you tell will go directly into my notes.
> What you offer is a bit outside my original thesis question, but it really
> interesting, nonetheless. I cannot help but notice your choice of words,
> that Nederlands en Vlaams are "strategic partners" in a war against the
> French invaders from the south of Belgium.
> Before I proceed, I would like to invite you to respond in Dutch or Flemish
> or Afrikaans or in whatever language you speak natively. I can read all of
> them. Inasmuch as you live in Nijmegen, I assume you speak Dutch natively.
> As I have said, language is a huge part of cultural identity. I was not
> personally aware of the Flemish plight against the Walloons from the
> south. Your contribution gives me yet more to consider. The Belgian
> Flemings seem to be fighting for their own cultural identity, perhaps
> against all odds. Are we engaged in cultural and linguistic cold wars????
> Walloons against Flemings?? Québecois against Anglo-Canadians? Afrikaners
> against those who speak English in Suid-Afrika? Americans who speak
> English versus those who speak Spanish??

'Mericans don't speak English....;-))

Even the size of their gallons is different....8-))

--
Bye,

Willem-Jan Markerink

The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand


[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28869 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] So, 30 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Anoniem
Oorspronklik gepos deur: @home.com

PAT wrote:

> Gloudina:
>
> Dit is interessant wat jy vertel. Waar kom ons New Orleans
> Cajuns in die prentjie wat betref die Acadians? Ek dog dat
> hulle almal afgetrek het, en afgestig het van hulle Kanadese
> voorouers, of het ek dit mis?

Nee Pat, die voorvaders van die Cajuns is in 1755 deur die
Engelse uit die Maritieme dele van die ooskus uitgeskop. Die
Franse wat nie 'n eed van getroue aan die Britse heersers
wou sweer nie, moes Nova Scotia en New Brunswick verlaat.
Hulle is toe af na Louisiana, wat op daardie tydstip nog 'n
Franse besitting was. (Ek dink dis in 1803 deur Napoleon aan
die nuwe Amerikaanse staat verkoop.) Daar word gepraat van
die "Expulsion" van die Acadians - 'n voorbeeld van "etnic
cleansing" as daar ooit een was.
Mens moet onthou dat die Franse lank voor die Engelse
in wat vandag as Kanada bekend staan, aangekom het.
Aan die begin van die agtiende eeu het "New France" gestrek
van Hudson Bay tot aan die Golf van Mexico, en van
Newfoundland tot aan die Groot Mere. (Hulle was ook die
eerste Europeers om die prairies binne te gaan veral vir die
pelshandel. Dis daarom dat die Metis van die prairie provinsies
van Kanada omtrent almal Franse name het. Dis daarom dat
die woord "voyageur" en "portage" selfs in Kanadese Engels
vrylik gebruik word.)
Maar in die loop van die agtiende eeu het Engeland en
Frankryk in Europa en op die see en uiteindelik in Noord-
Amerika teen mekaar begin veg. Daar was selfs gevegte tussen
hulle in Ohio. Uiteindelik het 'n ooreenkoms na die Sewejarige
Oorlog tussen Frankyk en Engeland groot dele aan Brittanje
geskenk.
Die storie van die ekspulsie van die Akadiers uit Nova
Scotia (wat toe ook New Brunswick en Prince Edward
Island ingesluit het) word vertel in "Evangeline" deur
Longfellow.

Gloudina

>
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28877 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Ma, 31 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
David Johnstone  is tans af-lyn  David Johnstone
Boodskappe: 2
Geregistreer: Januarie 2000
Karma: 0
Junior Lid
Hi Cailean and other contributers to this thread so far,

I am an English mother language South African who left SA 12 years
ago. I had to learn Afrikaans at school and was reasonably fluent
in it with an excellent passive understanding (a lot of TV was
Afrikaans then). Since I left I have had little occassion to speak
or hear Afrikaans and have forgotten most of it. I can still read it
quite well though rapid speech is beyond my comprehension, and my
active usage is limited to a few simple sentences.

I have now been in Germany 7 years and to some extent suppressed my
Afrikaans consciously since the German and Afrikaans have enough
similarities to be confusing (though they are in many ways very
different). I could give you many examples. Since I have been living
and working in a German speaking environment my English has
interestingly deteriorated too, a thing which I never thought possible!
Many relatives have commented on this and often I find a German
expression occurs to me which is exactly what I want to say, but in my
own language I have to elect for a compromise. Sometimes the other way
around too. After about 4 years here my dreams started switching from
English to German.

So what is my conclusion? Basically that language does not go as deep
as many people think. People adapt when they are in a new environment.

Some other general observations:

(1)
In my experience Afrikaans is more similar to Flemish than Dutch. I
suspect the original immigrants were from what is now the Flemmish
speaking part of Belgium - at that time it was all part of Holland
AFAIK.

(2)
Many white South Africans (particularly city-dwellers like myself) had
practically no contact with the other indigenous languages, Zulu,
Xhosa, Sotho etc. This was a natural consequence of apartheid and
the group areas act. Sad but true. The contact I had with native
speakers of these languages was all in English. Since leaving the
English-speaking world I have come to realise that many English-
speakers are biggoted as far as their language goes, or maybe just
poor linguists or both.

(3)
I have recently come to realise how strange and different South African
English is to UK or American English, how many of it's own words,
formulations and pronunciations it has. I believe there is at least
one South African English dictionary available.

Hope this helps and good luck with the research!

David Johnstone

In article
,
"Cailean L. Shearer" wrote:
> Hello!
>
> I am curious as to the experiences of those of you who speak English as
> well as Afrikaans and, ideally, have moved from South Africa to either
> ...

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Before you buy.
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28878 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Ma, 31 Januarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Anoniem
Oorspronklik gepos deur: @home.com

David Johnstone wrote:

> . Since I have been living
> and working in a German speaking environment my English has
> interestingly deteriorated too, a thing which I never thought possible!
> Many relatives have commented on this

Well, you are not alone in having your English deteriorate, but in mycase it
was because I was "forced" to change over to English when
speaking to my husband (also an Afrikaner) but who decided in 1976
that he did not want to talk Afrikaans any more, for a variety of reasons.
I was already speaking English to my children and to most people
around me, but the changeover when speaking English to my husband
was literally very traumatic. And I noticed that my English deteriorated,
especially my grammar. My theory is that I was talking English as a
second language before 1976, but now had to start talking it as a first
language (maybe from another part of the brain?) Everybody pooh-poohed
my theory, until my daughter started to study Neurology at McGill and told
me that people are asked what language they spoke as a child before they
have a brain operation. If it is a language that the doctors or nurses would

not be able to understand, they ask that somebody knowing this language
be on call in the vicinity, since people very often will start talking their
original
language when certain parts of the brain are touched. So I do not agree with

your statement that language does not go very deep.

Gloudina

>
Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28884 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Di, 01 Februarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
David Johnstone  is tans af-lyn  David Johnstone
Boodskappe: 2
Geregistreer: Januarie 2000
Karma: 0
Junior Lid
In article ,
@home.com wrote:
> David Johnstone wrote:
>
>> . Since I have been living
>> and working in a German speaking environment my English has
>> interestingly deteriorated too, a thing which I never thought possible!
>> Many relatives have commented on this
>
> Well, you are not alone in having your English deteriorate, but in mycase it
> was because I was "forced" to change over to English when
> speaking to my husband (also an Afrikaner) but who decided in 1976
> that he did not want to talk Afrikaans any more, for a variety of reasons.
> I was already speaking English to my children and to most people
> around me, but the changeover when speaking English to my husband
> was literally very traumatic. And I noticed that my English deteriorated,
> especially my grammar. My theory is that I was talking English as a
> second language before 1976, but now had to start talking it as a first
> language (maybe from another part of the brain?) Everybody pooh-poohed
> my theory, until my daughter started to study Neurology at McGill and told
> me that people are asked what language they spoke as a child before they
> have a brain operation. If it is a language that the doctors or nurses would
>
> not be able to understand, they ask that somebody knowing this language
> be on call in the vicinity, since people very often will start talking their
> original
> language when certain parts of the brain are touched. So I do not agree with
>
> your statement that language does not go very deep.
>

That is most intereseting about the brain surgery. I think you
are right, my statement was not really what I meant when I said
"language does not go very deep". I also find that my English
improves again when I am back in an English speaking environment,
e.g. when I visit my sister who lives in London.

What I think is true is that people are very adaptable and that
the language they use day-to-day, including thinking and dreaming,
can be swapped over a relatively short period of time (a couple of
years I mean). To the point where the newly acquired language
ceases to be a "foreign" language. But I think a language which has
reached this status will never be lost, though it may recede into
the subconscious until needed or brought up by some event.

David

> Gloudina
>
>>
>
>

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Re: Afrikaans [boodskap #28885 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #5866] Di, 01 Februarie 2000 00:00 Na vorige boodskapNa vorige boodskap
Thorsten Müller  is tans af-lyn  Thorsten Müller
Boodskappe: 103
Geregistreer: Julie 1998
Karma: 0
Senior Lid
ProPacem wrote:

> Recent neurological research seem to indicate that if one aquires more than one
> language in childhood, they mesh together in a neural net. When one acquires
> another language in adulthood, though, a relatively separate area of the brain
> is brought into play.

Sometimes parents are concerned that their children -- if raised bilingually --
cannot master both languages as well as if they only had one native language, and
that they will have disadvantages, e.g. at school. But it seems that bilingual
children very often master ANY of the two languages better than their monolingual
playmates. They also have a better feel and understanding for how languages work,
and it is often much easier for them to acquire other foreign languages.

Greetings,

Thorsten
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