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| Afrikaans mos [boodskap #40576] |
So, 25 Maart 2001 18:46  |
Paul Roberge
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Junior Lid |
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I have some questions regarding the Afrikaans adverb "mos" that I
should like to run by the native speakers on this board, e.g.,
Dis mos nie die moeite werd nie.
Dis mos jou vrye aand.
First, can "mos" ever occur at the beginning of a sentence?
Mos is dit nie die moeite werd nie.
Mos is dit jou vrye aand.
Or at the end?
Dit is jou vrye aand, mos!
I am not asking whether these alternatives are standard or "proper"
Afrikaans--just if anyone would ever say something like them.
Second, are "mos" and "immers" interchangeable? In other words
do these two sentences mean the same thing?
Dis immers jou vrye aand = Dis mos jou vrye aand.
Are there occasions/contexts when "immers" and "mos" cannot
be substituted without change of meaning? If so, could anyone
give me some examples where the two would have different meanings
or where you could use one but not the other?
Last, the Woordeboek van die Afrikaanse taal (vol. 10, p. 549)
gives "mis," "mors," and "mus" as colloquial and/or obsolete
variants ("geselstaal of veroudered"). Has anyone heard these
used? I am particularly curious about "mors." "Mus" I have
seen in nineteenth-century documents.
Any help/opinions would be most gratefully appreciated.
Thanks!
Paul Roberge
Chapel Hill, NC, USA
p...@email.unc.edu
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| Re: Afrikaans mos [boodskap #40583 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #40576] |
Ma, 26 Maart 2001 04:55  |
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Oorspronklik gepos deur: @home.com
Paul Roberge wrote:
> First, can "mos" ever occur at the beginning of a sentence?
>
> Mos is dit nie die moeite werd nie.
No, I do not think so. It would be a very torturedsentence if that were
to happen.
> Or at the end?
>
> Dit is jou vrye aand, mos!
Yes, this would be allowed, but it would not beusual to put it at the
end. "Mos" put at the end
would look like another train of thought in the making.
>
>
> Second, are "mos" and "immers" interchangeable? In other words
> do these two sentences mean the same thing?
>
> Dis immers jou vrye aand = Dis mos jou vrye aand.
No, I don't think they are really exactly the same. There is a
slightnuance of meaning that is different. Besides, "immers" is not in
very
general use in Afrikaans ( slightly bookish), while "mos" is used
widely, and is very frequently taken over by speakers of other
languages in South Africa, since it is such a peculiarly pliable word.
>
>
> Are there occasions/contexts when "immers" and "mos" cannot
> be substituted without change of meaning? If so, could anyone
> give me some examples where the two would have different meanings
> or where you could use one but not the other?
Ek gaan mos nie hierdie gemors toelaat nie.Cannot say: Ek gaan immers
nie hierdie gemors toelaat nie
Jy weet mos.
Cannot say: Jy weet immers.
> Last, the Woordeboek van die Afrikaanse taal (vol. 10, p. 549)
> gives "mis," "mors," and "mus" as colloquial and/or obsolete
> variants ("geselstaal of veroudered"). Has anyone heard these
> used? I am particularly curious about "mors." "Mus" I have
> seen in nineteenth-century documents.
>
I have not heard any one of them used.
Gloudina
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| Re: Afrikaans mos [boodskap #40589 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #40576] |
Ma, 26 Maart 2001 08:30 |
Voetleuce
Boodskappe: 127
Geregistreer: Februarie 2001
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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Paul Roberge:
1. Can "mos" ever occur at the beginning of a sentence?
2. Are "mos" and "immers" interchangeable?
3. The Woordeboek van die Afrikaanse taal (vol. 10, p. 549)
gives "mis," "mors," and "mus" as colloquial and/or obsolete
variants ("geselstaal of veroudered"). Has anyone heard these
used? I am particularly curious about "mors." "Mus" I have
seen in nineteenth-century documents.
Leuce:
1. At the beginning, hardly. At the end, either in very informal speech,
or if the sentence looks different from your example. Although the german
"doch" and the Afrikaans "mos" have similar meanings, you cannot really use
"mos" at the end of a sentence like that. However, you can say "Ek ken jou
mos!". But you cannot say "Ek het jou gesien mos" (correct way is "Ek het
jou mos gesien"). I think "mos" has to follow the pronoun if "vir" is not
used, or should precede "vir" if "vir" is used in conjunction with the
pronoun. Hence "Ek het mos vir jou gesien" and "Ek het jou mos gesien".
2. If the words "mos" and "immers" are used in the sense of "afterall",
they do have slightly different feels but yet similar meanings. Firstly
"mos" is of a slightly lower register than "immers", and "mos" is more often
used for things that are regarded as proven by common law whereas "immers"
is used for things that are regarded as proven by proof itself. If the word
"mos" is used not in the sense of "afterall", but purely as a flavouring
particle, then "immers" cannot replace it.
Hence:
Ons het mos toestemming gekry. (Afterall, we received permission)
Ons het immers toestemming gekry. (We received permission, afterall)
Ek het jou mos gesê! (I told you so, some time in the past).
3. I don't know what sense you're using the words "mis, mors and mus". I
certainly don't know them in the sense of "mos".
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| Re: Afrikaans mos [boodskap #40597 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #40594] |
Ma, 26 Maart 2001 13:29 |
Voetleuce
Boodskappe: 127
Geregistreer: Februarie 2001
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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Paul:
Can "mos" ever occur at the beginning of a sentence?
Christo:
Mos is gegiste druiwesap.
Leuce:
:ppppppppppppppppppp
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| Re: Afrikaans mos [boodskap #40603 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #40594] |
Ma, 26 Maart 2001 18:32 |
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Oorspronklik gepos deur: @home.com
hcv wrote:
>> Paul Roberge:
>> 1. Can "mos" ever occur at the beginning of a sentence?
>
> Mos is gegiste druiwesap.
Jy speel nou mos met die man.
Gloudina
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| Re: Afrikaans mos [boodskap #40610 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #40576] |
Ma, 26 Maart 2001 22:55 |
Paul Roberge
Boodskappe: 8
Geregistreer: Oktober 1999
Karma: 0
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Junior Lid |
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Paul Roberge:
:> > 1. Can "mos" ever occur at the beginning of a sentence?
Christo:
:> Mos is gegiste druiwesap.
Gloudina:
: Jy speel nou mos met die man.
Well, I guess I teed it up for him :-)
Leuce, Gloudina, Anne--thank you for taking the time to respond
to my queries. I have found your responses most helpful.
Christo--touch'e!
:Leuce:
: 3. I don't know what sense you're using the words "mis, mors and
: mus". I certainly don't know them in the sense of "mos".
According the Woordeboek van die Afrikaans taal, "mis, mors, mus"
are variant pronunciations of "mos." I have seen "mus" many times
in nineteenth-century Cape Dutch texts, e.g. (with some slight
normalization):
Ek weet mus wat ek doen
for
Ek weet mos wat ek doen.
I was struck, however, by "mis" and especially "mors" in the WAT
entry. I have never encountered either in textual sources or in
the spoken language, but then again I am not a South African, and
my knowledge of Afrikaans is strictly academic. So I was just
curious if anyone on the list had ever heard these variants.
Cheers!
P.
Paul Roberge
Chapel Hill, NC, USA
p...@email.unc.edu
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| Re: Afrikaans mos [boodskap #40611 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #40576] |
Di, 27 Maart 2001 02:44 |
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Oorspronklik gepos deur: @home.com
Paul Roberge wrote:
> According the Woordeboek van die Afrikaans taal, "mis, mors, mus"
> are variant pronunciations of "mos." I have seen "mus" many times
> in nineteenth-century Cape Dutch texts, e.g. (with some slight
> normalization):
>
> Ek weet mus wat ek doen
>
> for
>
> Ek weet mos wat ek doen.
>
> I was struck, however, by "mis" and especially "mors" in the WAT
> entry. I have never encountered either in textual sources or in
> the spoken language, but then again I am not a South African, and
> my knowledge of Afrikaans is strictly academic. So I was just
> curious if anyone on the list had ever heard these variants.
>
If you are trying to write down a person's pronunciation
phonetically, I have no doubt that you would sometimes
hear something like "Ek weet mus wat ek doen."
Because I was interested in the origin of the word "mos,"
I went to the Dictionary of South African English, because
I know that English speaking South Africans adopt it
quite frequently. Here is what the dictionary says:
" Adv. particle. colloq. Indeed, in fact, actually, but; used
redundantly in SAE....(Afk. fr. Dutch im(mers) indeed,
in fact; thought to be from Yiddish mozel, luck.
I was also surprised to see "mos" used at the end of the
sentence, in the examples they give from literature. In
both the first two cases, it is used in this way by African
language users whose mother tongue is probably not
Afrikaans.
"Doctors and lawyers?... they work for themselves.. they
don't serve anybody, mos." M. Matshoba, Stories of 1979.
"You have seen the drought mos. The whole country is
going to pray for rain." A. La Guma: Time of Butcherbird
In combination slang as in "I did it for..., or for ...sie", for no
special reason, for the hell of it, just because etc.
"It was darem high time for someone did for South African
English what Mr. Fowler did for the language of Britain, It
obiviously was not a sommer-for-mossie job and one can
only be grateful. M. van Biljon, S. Times..
"This hang gliding. Stone crazy.. You would'nt catch me
jumping off a hill jis for moz like that." Darling 4.8.76
I would be interested to know whether "mos" is used in
Flemish or Dutch.
Gloudina
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| Re: Afrikaans mos [boodskap #40678 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #40576] |
Wo, 28 Maart 2001 17:08 |
Paul Roberge
Boodskappe: 8
Geregistreer: Oktober 1999
Karma: 0
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Junior Lid |
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Gloudina:
> Because I was interested in the origin of the word "mos,"
> I went to the Dictionary of South African English, because
> I know that English speaking South Africans adopt it
> quite frequently. Here is what the dictionary says:
> " Adv. particle. colloq. Indeed, in fact, actually, but; used
> redundantly in SAE....(Afk. fr. Dutch im(mers) indeed,
in fact;
That is the standard etymology: Afr. mos is supposed to be from
the second syllable of a colloquial variant of Dutch immers,
viz. ommers; thus, mos < ommos < ommo(r)s < ommers (attested
once in Van Riebeeck's diary).
Gloudina:
> I would be interested to know whether "mos" is used in
> Flemish or Dutch.
Apparently, "mos" has been recorded in West Flemish, specifically
in a dialect dictionary published in the late nineteenth century.
That is the only metropolitan attestation of which I am aware.
Thanks again!
P.
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| Re: Afrikaans mos [boodskap #40684 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #40678] |
Do, 29 Maart 2001 00:59 |
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Oorspronklik gepos deur: @home.com
Paul Roberge wrote:
> That is the standard etymology: Afr. mos is supposed to be from
> the second syllable of a colloquial variant of Dutch immers,
> viz. ommers; thus, mos < ommos < ommo(r)s < ommers (attested
> once in Van Riebeeck's diary).
> Apparently, "mos" has been recorded in West Flemish, specifically
> in a dialect dictionary published in the late nineteenth century.
> That is the only metropolitan attestation of which I am aware.
>
I am frankly intrigued by your abstruse knowledge of
things Afrikaans. What is your field and are you making
an intensive study of Afrikaans at the same time? I
can't say that in all my years of studying Afrikaans,
I was ever told the origin of "mos."
Gloudina
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| Re: Afrikaans mos [boodskap #40685 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #40576] |
Do, 29 Maart 2001 02:39 |
Paul Roberge
Boodskappe: 8
Geregistreer: Oktober 1999
Karma: 0
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Junior Lid |
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@home.com wrote:
: I am frankly intrigued by your abstruse knowledge of
: things Afrikaans. What is your field and are you making
: an intensive study of Afrikaans at the same time? I
: can't say that in all my years of studying Afrikaans,
: I was ever told the origin of "mos."
Gloudina,
I am professor of Germanic languages and linguistics
at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
My specific area of research is historical linguistics, and
I am especially interested in the formation of new languages in
extraterrorial settings. Afrikaans presents a particularly
interesting and important case study.
I don't know if you would remember, but last year I posted a query to
this board with regard to the Afrikaans brace negation (nie . . . nie),
for an article that appeared this past (northern hemispheric) fall. Many
people on this board (including yourself) were extrememly helpful to
me. Right now, I am doing research for another article on the
development of Afrikaans adverbials, e.g., mos, kamma, glo, dalk(ies),
darem, sommer, maskie.
I know the older source material well, and I do get to South Africa
every now and again for archival research. But my active knowledge
of modern Afrikaans is self-taught; there is no opportunity
for me to hear/speak the language here in central North Carolina; and
so I don't trust my own sense for what is/is not felicitous in the
modern spoken language. For this reason, I am very grateful for
the willingess of you and others on this board to share
native-speaker intuitions with me.
P.
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| Re: Afrikaans mos [boodskap #40686 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #40576] |
Do, 29 Maart 2001 04:06 |
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Oorspronklik gepos deur: @home.com
Paul Roberge wrote:
> Right now, I am doing research for another article on the
> development of Afrikaans adverbials, e.g., mos, kamma, glo, dalk(ies),
> darem, sommer, maskie.
I have never heard the word "maskie." Has it got somethingto do with
"allemaskie"? What is it's origin?
Gloudina
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| Re: Afrikaans mos [boodskap #40688 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #40576] |
Do, 29 Maart 2001 04:52 |
Krokkie
Boodskappe: 478
Geregistreer: Julie 1999
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Senior Lid |
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Ja "maskie" self nog nooit teegekom nie.
"allmapstieks" wel
I have never heard the word "maskie." Has it got somethingto do with[/color]
> "allemaskie"? What is it's origin?
>
> Gloudina
>
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| Re: Afrikaans mos [boodskap #40689 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #40576] |
Do, 29 Maart 2001 05:33 |
Paul Roberge
Boodskappe: 8
Geregistreer: Oktober 1999
Karma: 0
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Junior Lid |
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@home.com wrote:
: I have never heard the word "maskie." Has it got somethingto do with
: "allemaskie"? What is it's origin?
"Maskie" (meaning 'perhaps, maybe, although') is obsolete in Afrikaans.
It is, however, very common in nineteenth-century Cape Dutch texts, e.g.,
Ik denk daar om, jullie sel die Patriot net nou mar
grooter mot maak, of anders hom tweemal in die maand
uitgeef; maskie alle week (Die Afrikaanse Patriot,
15 September 1876).
"Maskie" came into the language from Creole Portuguese "maski"
(Portuguese mas que) and does indeed surive in our time in the
compound "almaskie." I suspect that when Cape Dutch was standardized
into what we know today as Afrikaans, "maskie" was dropped, perhaps
because "almaskie" could cover the same functions.
P.
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| Re: Afrikaans mos [boodskap #40691 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #40688] |
Do, 29 Maart 2001 06:41 |
T de Wet
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En wat dan van die woord "almiskie"? Etimoloë vertel ons meer asb...
Die regte Thys oppie Bos
"Krokkie" skryf in boodskap news:3ac2bf23$0$228@hades.is.co.za...
> Ja "maskie" self nog nooit teegekom nie.
>
> "allmapstieks" wel
>
>
> > I have never heard the word "maskie." Has it got somethingto do with
>> "allemaskie"? What is it's origin?
>>
>> Gloudina
>>
>
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| Re: Afrikaans mos [boodskap #40693 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #40685] |
Do, 29 Maart 2001 08:28 |
Emmy
Boodskappe: 79
Geregistreer: Januarie 2001
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Volle Lid |
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Het woord maskie klinkt een beetje op een Italiaans woord voor
mannelijkheid .
Dit heeft niets met Afrikaans te maken maar er zijn woorden die ook in
ander soort
talen gelijken.
Als voorbeeld ....in het Engels difficult......Italiaans
difficile........ .dezelfde betekenis
Grt Emmy
"Paul Roberge" skryf in boodskap news:99u790$mh8$1@news2.isis.unc.edu...
> @home.com wrote:
>
> : I am frankly intrigued by your abstruse knowledge of
> : things Afrikaans. What is your field and are you making
> : an intensive study of Afrikaans at the same time? I
> : can't say that in all my years of studying Afrikaans,
> : I was ever told the origin of "mos."
>
> Gloudina,
>
> I am professor of Germanic languages and linguistics
> at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
> My specific area of research is historical linguistics, and
> I am especially interested in the formation of new languages in
> extraterrorial settings. Afrikaans presents a particularly
> interesting and important case study.
>
> I don't know if you would remember, but last year I posted a query to
> this board with regard to the Afrikaans brace negation (nie . . . nie),
> for an article that appeared this past (northern hemispheric) fall. Many
> people on this board (including yourself) were extrememly helpful to
> me. Right now, I am doing research for another article on the
> development of Afrikaans adverbials, e.g., mos, kamma, glo, dalk(ies),
> darem, sommer, maskie.
>
> I know the older source material well, and I do get to South Africa
> every now and again for archival research. But my active knowledge
> of modern Afrikaans is self-taught; there is no opportunity
> for me to hear/speak the language here in central North Carolina; and
> so I don't trust my own sense for what is/is not felicitous in the
> modern spoken language. For this reason, I am very grateful for
> the willingess of you and others on this board to share
> native-speaker intuitions with me.
>
>
> P.
>
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| Re: Afrikaans mos [boodskap #40701 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #40576] |
Do, 29 Maart 2001 12:35 |
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Oorspronklik gepos deur: @home.com
Thys de Wet wrote:
> En wat dan van die woord "almiskie"? Etimoloë vertel ons meer asb...
>
> Die regte Thys oppie Bos
Wonder of dit nie net die Nederlands "almiskien" is
of soiets nie.
Gloudina
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| Re: Afrikaans mos [boodskap #40707 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #40576] |
Do, 29 Maart 2001 19:03 |
Arthur Hagen
Boodskappe: 559
Geregistreer: Julie 2001
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Senior Lid |
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Gloudina schreef...
> Thys de Wet wrote:
>
>> En wat dan van die woord "almiskie"? Etimoloë vertel ons meer asb...
>>
>> Die regte Thys oppie Bos
>
> Wonder of dit nie net die Nederlands "almiskien" is
> of soiets nie.
Nee, ons het nie 'n woord soos "almisschien" in Standaard Nederlands nie.
Oorigens, hoe seker is dit dat "maskie" van die Portugese "mas que" kom?
"Maskie" lyk mos baie op "miskien".
Ek spreek die "mis" in "misschien" nie uit soos "miss" in Engels nie, maar
eerder soos "mus" (met die "u"-klank soos die "o" in die Engelse "worry").
Dit benader al die "a"-klank in "maskie"....
Groete,
Arthur
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| Re: Afrikaans mos [boodskap #40708 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #40707] |
Do, 29 Maart 2001 21:17 |
Rico
Boodskappe: 823
Geregistreer: Julie 2001
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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>
> Ek spreek die "mis" in "misschien" nie uit soos "miss" in Engels nie, maar
> eerder soos "mus" (met die "u"-klank soos die "o" in die Engelse "worry").
> Dit benader al die "a"-klank in "maskie"....
>
> Groete,
> Arthur
Hi Arthur,
Ek stem nie saam met jou nie, in hierdie saak.
Ek spreek die mis in miskien wel uit soos die Engelse miss.
In hierdie streek waar ek woon, doen al die mense dit.
Het dit met dialek te maak???
Gr. Rico
>
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| Re: Afrikaans mos [boodskap #40721 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #40708] |
Vr, 30 Maart 2001 14:32 |
Arthur Hagen
Boodskappe: 559
Geregistreer: Julie 2001
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"Rico" schreef...
>> Ek spreek die "mis" in "misschien" nie uit soos "miss" in Engels nie, maar
>> eerder soos "mus" (met die "u"-klank soos die "o" in die Engelse "worry").
>>
> Ek stem nie saam met jou nie, in hierdie saak.
Saamstem? Waarom ..... dis geen teorie nie, dis net 'n vaststelling, ek sê
"meschien", nie "mischien" nie.
Groete,
Arthur
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| Re: Afrikaans mos [boodskap #40723 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #40721] |
Vr, 30 Maart 2001 15:34 |
Hilda
Boodskappe: 383
Geregistreer: Augustus 2003
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"Arthur Hagen" skryf in boodskap news:9a26l8$2tk9$1@news.kabelfoon.nl...
> "Rico" schreef...
>>> Ek spreek die "mis" in "misschien" nie uit soos "miss" in Engels nie,
> maar
>>> eerder soos "mus" (met die "u"-klank soos die "o" in die Engelse
> "worry").
>>>
>> Ek stem nie saam met jou nie, in hierdie saak.
>
> Saamstem? Waarom ..... dis geen teorie nie, dis net 'n vaststelling, ek sê
> "meschien", nie "mischien" nie.
>
> Groete,
> Arthur
Ik zeg ook 'messchien', maar ik denk dat men in Antwerpen ook 'miesschien'
zegt.
Groetjes uit een zonnig Gistel (hééééééérlijk na die lange winter !),
Hilda
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