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Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #73548 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #73524] Vr, 14 Februarie 2003 17:26 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Anoniem
Oorspronklik gepos deur: @rogers.com

Sterrenkijker wrote:

>  Miskien is dit nodig om eens te loer op hierdie webbladsy:
>   http://www.yahooligans.com/reference/dictionary/entries/55/h 0235500.html
>  Daar staan moontlik die verklaring waarom Elaine die uitdrukking "hoi
>  polloi" verkeerd gebruik het.

            Dankie. Dit dui daarop dat selfs
            Engels-sprekendes somtyds die woord
            verkeerd gebruik, omdat hulle dit
            verwar met "hoity-toity." Maar dit
            beteken nog nie dat die hoi polloi
            die reg het om ons, wat die woord
            reg gebruik, aan te val nie.

Tant Hessie van die hoë lui.
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #73549 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #73545] Vr, 14 Februarie 2003 17:38 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Anoniem
Oorspronklik gepos deur: @rogers.com

Sterrenkijker wrote:

> Verskoning, Tant Hessie, maar ek is seker daarvan dat 95% van al die
> Afrikaanssprekendes in Suid-Afrika nie eens weet wat 'hoi polloi'
> eintlik beteken nie. Ons is hier in Vlaandere 'n bietjie digter by
> Griekenland as julle maar dit sal nie baie uitmaak nie. Ook hier in
> Vlaandere ken die mensen nie daardie benaming nie.

So hoekom kom die woord "hoi polloi" so
dikwels op hierdie Afrikaanse nuusgroep
op? Dit bewys dat mense in SA dit meer
gebruik as mense in Vlaandere. Dit het
niks te doen met die nabyheid van Grieke-
land nie. Daar is 'n ander rede hoekom
dit ongeveer deel van die Afrikaanse
woordeskat geword het. Sal nogal interessant
wees om uit te vind. Twee van my raaiskote:
dat Langenhoven dit baie gebruik het, en
ook dat die uitdrukking in Engels voorkom.
Maar my geld is op die eerste. Daar was
'n tyd in die twintig- en dertigerjare toe
seker driekwart van die Afrikaanse literatuur
bestaan het uit stories van Langenhoven.

Gloudina
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #73561 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #73453] Vr, 14 Februarie 2003 19:59 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Tobie  is tans af-lyn  Tobie
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Senior Lid
"Sterrenkijker"
>
> Interesting! I did not know about that!! When was it? In what years?
> Did they really do that?
---

ok, nou kan ek weer Afrikaans praat, Marcelo Bruno het klaar sy antwoord
gekry ...... Dit was op tv gewys destyds. Dit was voor 1991, want toe het ek
nog 'n tv gehad :-) Norbert ek dink dit was gedurende die vroeë 1980's,
maar ek gaan nie my kop op 'n blok sit nie, dit was te lank gelede.
Groete
---
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #73562 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #73548] Vr, 14 Februarie 2003 20:12 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Elaine  is tans af-lyn  Elaine
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Senior Lid
Laas toe ek gekyk het was jy die een wat die Hoi Polloi aangeval het - nie
soos jy sê ons wat jou aanval nie. Do unto others... So as jy mislik en
aanvallig is, gaan jy dieselfde mislike en aanvallige reaksie van ons af
terugkry. Daar's 'n mooi manier om vir iemand te sê hulle is verkeerd, en
'n lelike manier. Jy verkies gewoonlik die lelike manier.

E

wrote:
>
>
> Dankie. Dit dui daarop dat selfs
> Engels-sprekendes somtyds die woord
> verkeerd gebruik, omdat hulle dit
> verwar met "hoity-toity." Maar dit
> beteken nog nie dat die hoi polloi
> die reg het om ons, wat die woord
> reg gebruik, aan te val nie.
>
> Tant Hessie van die hoë lui.
>
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #73572 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #73453] Vr, 14 Februarie 2003 22:24 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Arthur  is tans af-lyn  Arthur
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Senior Lid
"Sterrenkijker" schreef...
> "Tobie" wrote:
>
>> I can not remember what years it were when young Dutch students ransacked
>> libraries in the Nederlands and destroyed Afrikaans books. It was during the
>> time when all ties were broken off between the cultural institutions of the
>> two countries. It was also shown on our tv how those books were torn and
>> burnt. Could that be the reason for the lack of Afrikaans books in the
>> Nederlands?
>
> Interesting! I did not know about that!! When was it? In what years?
> Did they really do that?
> Well, I invite the Dutch to explain a few things here. So far I know
> things like that did not happen in Flanders. I'll check out anyway.

I'm not aware of such book burnings here in The Netherlands either, but I
can't rule out that it ever happened .... where ever you find extremism (be
it 'left', 'right' or 'religious') you'll find people prepared to burn
books.

Arthur
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #73594 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #73561] Sa, 15 Februarie 2003 09:50 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Sterrenkijker  is tans af-lyn  Sterrenkijker
Boodskappe: 654
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Senior Lid
On Fri, 14 Feb 2003 21:59:58 +0200, "Tobie" wrote:

> "Sterrenkijker"

>> Interesting! I did not know about that!! When was it? In what years?
>> Did they really do that?
> ---
>
> ok, nou kan ek weer Afrikaans praat, Marcelo Bruno het klaar sy antwoord
> gekry ...... Dit was op tv gewys destyds. Dit was voor 1991, want toe het ek
> nog 'n tv gehad :-) Norbert ek dink dit was gedurende die vroeë 1980's,
> maar ek gaan nie my kop op 'n blok sit nie, dit was te lank gelede.
> Groete
> ---
>
Ja, dankie! Dit moet ek beslis weet! Ek het so'n gevoel jy sou wel
eens reg kan wees! Ek vind dit nou so eienaardig dat ek in die
grootste biblioteek van Zeeland -en dan nog in sy eie hoofstad- nie
één enkel literêr werk in Afrikaans kan vind nie. Al die huise wat
rond daardie biblioteek staan het nog gebou gewees in die 17de en die
18de eeu. 'n Mens kan daar nog goed sien wat Nederland sy beste tyd
het gewees en daar is nog baie verwysinge na die V.O.C. maar niks in
die biblioteek nie! Hulle het miskien skrik gekry vir 'n nuwe
boekestorm. Ek gaan dit seker vra die volgende keer as ek daar kom.

Norbert
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #73625 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #73572] So, 16 Februarie 2003 05:40 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Tobie  is tans af-lyn  Tobie
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"Arthur Hagen"
---cut---
> I'm not aware of such book burnings here in The Netherlands either, but I
> can't rule out that it ever happened .... where ever you find extremism (be
> it 'left', 'right' or 'religious') you'll find people prepared to burn
> books.
---cut---

AMEN!
especially all the child pornography books
---
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #73697 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #73410] Ma, 17 Februarie 2003 21:58 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Marcelo Bruno  is tans af-lyn  Marcelo Bruno
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Junior Lid
Thank you for your reply, Norbert. My knowledge of South Africa is
certainly too
limited for me to have an opinion on the future of Afrikaans, but,
speaking in abstract terms, I do not necessarily share your view that
minority languagues are doomed to disappear when in competition with a
major world language with official status. Take the example of Catalan
in Spain. One might think that the incentives for Catalonians to give
the language up in favour of Castillian (Spanish)are enormous. Yet,
not only has the Catalan language survived, but it is actually
thriving at the moment. I guess that, in the end, it all depends on
the degree of support a minority language gets from the state. Maybe
you (or other posters) could answer me then what kind of state
support Afrikaans presently enjoys as an official language under the
South African constitution. Is public schooling in Afrikaans widely
available for native Afrikaans-speaking children ? Are there
universities where Afrikaans is used as language of instruction? Is
Afrikaans commonly used in parliamentary debates and court procedures
? Must all legal documents and government papers be translated into
Afrikaans? Do government agencies routinely offer public services in
Afrikaans ? Are there government subsidies for broadcasting (TV,
radio, etc...) in Afrikaans ? I also wonder if there is an Afrikaans
equivalent to the Spanish Royal Academy or the French academy to
standardize the language and prevent it from breaking up into several
mutually unintelligible dialects.

>> Although the Afrikaners made an attempt
>> to maintain coherence they are now failing. More and more they go the
>> old Flemish way: developing dialects and strongly influenced by
>> another foreign language: English. I can see that when I read
>> soc.culture.south-africa.afrikaans: it is broken! History will wipe it
>> out further. It would be great if they only could restore their
>> connection with Dutch and Flemish but this is impossible since too
>> much strangers have come in the Afrikaner families (French, German,
>> other nations). The Dutch will be put in the right about the Afrikaans
>> though it will be for another reason than they ever expected: the
>> Afrikaans won't die because of its weak culture but it will die
>> because it is now a part of a modern multicultural society. In such
>> societies language is no longer an exponent of common culture nor
>> solidarity: there a language has become just a necessary tool to
>> understand each other and then it's more practical to speak a language
>> spoken and understood by the whole world. Modern times..
>>
>> Norbert (from Flanders, Belgium)
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #73700 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #73697] Di, 18 Februarie 2003 00:51 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Sterrenkijker  is tans af-lyn  Sterrenkijker
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Senior Lid
Hi, Marcelo,

I can't entirely answer your question since I don't know the situation
in Spain referring to what you said upon the Catalan.
It is a fact however that nowadays minority languages in Europe have
better chances for survival than ever before. They are even strongly
resurgent. And it's not just in Spain; the same happens everywhere in
Europe. Look at my own country for instance (Belgium). Once Flemish
was a language in big distress but now it's the strongest language in
Belgium with a growing interest with the other, French speaking part.
I think this is due to safety, better education, prosperity and
territorial homogenity. The European Union is an economic success and
in such circumstances the need for territorial expansion fades.
This is normal: armies cost a lot of money and they are not
productive. On the contrary! Thus: safety first and prosperity. Also
education is a factor. When education is important and if this can be
provided in the local language then there is no need to learn or use
the language of your neighbours. Since Flanders got his own
universities and classes there were given in Dutch the interest for
French (which was for a long while the first scientific language in
our country) faded away. We were no longer obliged to study French
first and we regained our self-respect. We did even more: we banned
our dialects officially and we joined the new Standard Dutch which is
more or less a synthesis of all dialects spoken in the Low Countries.
I also said that territorial homogenity is important. Indeed it is.
Many minority languages have not always been insignificant. During
long periods of history these languages were, each at the time,
dominating entities till their speakers lost their autonomy after a
war, invasion or something like that. More or less they remained an
own group living on a own territory. This is very important since a
different language works as a natural barrier against infiltration as
long as the speakers remain unwilling to learn the language of the
foreign rulers. And it's easier to defend a language when you are a
"group" living as a closed community in an undevided territory. I
think this is the case with Catalonia. Most probably the Catalonians
are still a closed community with an own territory (I did not say:
autonomy!) and since they are a protected languages living in better
economic circumstances due to the E.U. they may grow again. This is,
at least, my idea, I could be wrong.
What about the Afrikaners in South-Africa: are we able to say the same
about them? I doubt. After the abolition of Apartheid they went into
an economic crisis and the native population (which has now the power)
did everything to reduce their former supremacy. Many Afrikaners left
the country, most (rich) intellectuals. Safety is nil: since 1991 more
than thousand "Boers" have been murdered in their fields by local
criminals. Criminality in South Africa is one of the biggest in the
world. There is a huge unemployment. Now available jobs have to be
shared proportionally. This means that competent whites lose their
jobs in favour of incompent and inexperienced blacks. This looks all
very democratic but you may understand in fact this is a disaster.
They are now surrounded and ruled by those who had no rights at all in
their own country during decades and they have no own territory. Their
majority in the cities is still significant but these cities are now
"open" and scattered over a vast country . This is in my eyes their
biggest problem for the future: they can't reunite nor regroup as a
single entity although they are making an attempt to do this: there is
a migration of whites to the province where the presence of the whites
in South Africa started: the Cape colony. Now how would you see your
own future in those circumstances if you were one of them? Them,
making an attempt in the past to forbid the use of all native
languages have now been reduced to an 11% minority. Also remember that
Apartheid foundered on the linguistic repression from the Afrikaans.
The whites have to live in houses fenced off by electric wire...
When you speak to them they all say there are no troubles. All is
peaceful and quiet. Hm.., would it? At first sight it is but when I
read their comments here on this very newsforum then I feel doubt.
Their educational infrastructure is still on end but it's not staying
on top of the situation. I read that the blacks prefer education in
English and this is very understandable, isn't it? Before Afrikaans
was the language of the oppressor and English is the better choice
nowadays. Where, do you think, will it all end?

Yours,

Norbert (from Flanders, Belgium)

On 17 Feb 2003 13:58:14 -0800, br...@ece.cmu.edu (Marcelo Bruno) wrote:

> Thank you for your reply, Norbert. My knowledge of South Africa is
> certainly too
> limited for me to have an opinion on the future of Afrikaans, but,
> speaking in abstract terms, I do not necessarily share your view that
> minority languagues are doomed to disappear when in competition with a
> major world language with official status. Take the example of Catalan
> in Spain. One might think that the incentives for Catalonians to give
> the language up in favour of Castillian (Spanish)are enormous. Yet,
> not only has the Catalan language survived, but it is actually
> thriving at the moment. I guess that, in the end, it all depends on
> the degree of support a minority language gets from the state. Maybe
> you (or other posters) could answer me then what kind of state
> support Afrikaans presently enjoys as an official language under the
> South African constitution. Is public schooling in Afrikaans widely
> available for native Afrikaans-speaking children ? Are there
> universities where Afrikaans is used as language of instruction? Is
> Afrikaans commonly used in parliamentary debates and court procedures
> ? Must all legal documents and government papers be translated into
> Afrikaans? Do government agencies routinely offer public services in
> Afrikaans ? Are there government subsidies for broadcasting (TV,
> radio, etc...) in Afrikaans ? I also wonder if there is an Afrikaans
> equivalent to the Spanish Royal Academy or the French academy to
> standardize the language and prevent it from breaking up into several
> mutually unintelligible dialects.
>
>>> Although the Afrikaners made an attempt
>>> to maintain coherence they are now failing. More and more they go the
>>> old Flemish way: developing dialects and strongly influenced by
>>> another foreign language: English. I can see that when I read
>>> soc.culture.south-africa.afrikaans: it is broken! History will wipe it
>>> out further. It would be great if they only could restore their
>>> connection with Dutch and Flemish but this is impossible since too
>>> much strangers have come in the Afrikaner families (French, German,
>>> other nations). The Dutch will be put in the right about the Afrikaans
>>> though it will be for another reason than they ever expected: the
>>> Afrikaans won't die because of its weak culture but it will die
>>> because it is now a part of a modern multicultural society. In such
>>> societies language is no longer an exponent of common culture nor
>>> solidarity: there a language has become just a necessary tool to
>>> understand each other and then it's more practical to speak a language
>>> spoken and understood by the whole world. Modern times..
>>>
>>> Norbert (from Flanders, Belgium)
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #73703 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #73697] Di, 18 Februarie 2003 03:44 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Moira de Swardt  is tans af-lyn  Moira de Swardt
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Volle Lid
Marcelo Bruno wrote in message

> Maybe
> you (or other posters) could answer me then what kind of state
> support Afrikaans presently enjoys as an official language under the
> South African constitution.

Its use in the provincial government is actively discouraged. As
the only native English speaking person in a sub-directorate where
every other person has Afrikaans as either a first language or their
second language (English being their third language) I find it
amusing that English is the language of all meetings and nearly all
communications. What's not so funny is the actual level and quality
of English used. I don't mean to exclude the fact that Afrikaans is
my second language by the convoluted comments above.

I have never seen an attempt to use one of the other of our eleven
official languages in any communication whatsoever.

Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #73738 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #73703] Di, 18 Februarie 2003 15:16 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Anoniem
Oorspronklik gepos deur: @rogers.com

Moira de Swardt wrote:

I find it
> amusing that English is the language of all meetings and nearly all
> communications. What's not so funny is the actual level and quality
> of English used.

The language situation in South Africa is clouded
by different people's private language agendas, and
they cannot see the wider picture of what is going
on. (Your private agenda is obviously concern about
the kind of English that is being spoken, tinged with
a certain hoity-toitiness.) The language situation
in South Africa can best be compared with that of
the Indian subcontinent, where the multitude of
different language groups choose to communicate through
the medium of English. The Indians got rid of the English
in no uncertain terms, but they chose to keep English
(or their brand of English) as a kind of a fanagalo to
communicate over language barriers. Now, you probably
sit and snigger when you hear two Indian politicians
argue in their brand of English, but note: they do not
talk your brand of English any more, just as you yourself
do not talk "proper" British any more.
In South Africa the present government's thinking is
obviously the same as that of India. They do not really
admire the British. But they have decided that English
(or the SA brand of English) is going to be the fanagalo
of the federal state.
Here in Canada something else started happening. The
whole country was for all practical purposes English-
speaking, until Pierre Trudeau stepped in and demanded that
French be given equal footing with English. And in less
than a generation no politician would now get elected unless
he speaks, or at least attempt to speak, French. And a large
number of English speaking schoolchildren start their
education in French immersion.

Gloudina Bouwer
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #73752 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #73738] Di, 18 Februarie 2003 21:36 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Moira de Swardt  is tans af-lyn  Moira de Swardt
Boodskappe: 41
Geregistreer: Mei 2006
Karma: 0
Volle Lid
wrote in message
> Moira de Swardt wrote:

> I find it
>> amusing that English is the language of all meetings and nearly all
>> communications. What's not so funny is the actual level and quality
>> of English used.

> The language situation in South Africa is clouded
> by different people's private language agendas, and
> they cannot see the wider picture of what is going
> on. (Your private agenda is obviously concern about
> the kind of English that is being spoken, tinged with
> a certain hoity-toitiness.)

Hoity-toity because I find sentences in pro forma letters such as
"This case was jot down." horrifying? Or am amazed that a standard
letter which will be sent out sixty or seventy times a day in as
many cases will be sent to the same address in "Bedfortview" for
years without the spelling ever being queried, much less corrected?

Then hoity-toity I am.

Or perhaps in this context I should say. "Then I are hoetitorti."

Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #73753 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #73752] Di, 18 Februarie 2003 22:20 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Anoniem
Oorspronklik gepos deur: @rogers.com

Moira de Swardt wrote:

> Hoity-toity because I find sentences in pro forma letters such as
> "This case was jot down." horrifying? Or am amazed that a standard
> letter which will be sent out sixty or seventy times a day in as
> many cases will be sent to the same address in "Bedfortview" for
> years without the spelling ever being queried, much less corrected?
>
> Then hoity-toity I am.
>
> Or perhaps in this context I should say. "Then I are hoetitorti."

Excuse me madam, but your whitey petticoat
is showing. What difference is there between
this kind of thing and the ignorance of the
Afrikaans and African languages that the non-
English speaking peoples of SA had to suffer
under decades and decades of English civil
servants that could barely talk Afrikaans
or not at all, and made no effort to learn
any African languages.
So your attitude is: if you cannot talk
English "correctly", then do not use it at all?
Or probably more like "if you cannot talk
or write it properly, leave it to us hallowed
beings that can, to show you how." Unfortunately
for you, they will continue to the best of their
ability, as they do in India, and you should
admire them for the relative fluency with which
they speak a language which is not their first
language. How fluently do you speak anything
but English? Is your Afrikaans impeccable? Do
you speak an African language with ease? I guess
it is also time for you to come to know terms
that have become commonplace in African English.
Just as you would have to in Dublin, should you
start working in the civil service there. Or
in Scotland, or in Wales. And I daresay in Cornwall.

Gloudina Bouwer
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #73776 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #73305] Wo, 19 Februarie 2003 16:37 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Anoniem
Oorspronklik gepos deur: @rogers.com

Hobo wrote:

If anyone was subjected to
> "decades and decades" of civil servants speaking a foreign tongue it was
> the English under the rule of the National Party.

I had no sympathy for the English when they
got booted out of the civil service by the
Afrikaner lackeys of the CIA. Just imagine
what it must have felt like for Africans to
suddenly have to confront the broad Afrikaner
accents talking English, when they previously
had to suffer under the mumblings of the English
civil servants. ( Have you ever really listened
to South African English talking South African
English? We recently acquired a South African
daughter in law, and our children complained
that they could not follow her too easily. So
we told them that we could not easily follow
her either. She soon learned to broaden her
accent to suit Canadian ears.)
So this is just the third wave, mister.
First it was the patter of the British. Then the
heavy tongues of the CIA lackeys. Now it is the
turn of the majority of the population to inject
themselves into the mixture. ( Do you know that
African English was formed by Victorian English,
since that is what was spoken when most of the
native speakers first came in contact with English
on a large scale. Just listen to African speakers
talking to each other, and you will hear the
cadences and the vocabulary of Victorian English.
I think the same holds true for Indian English.)

G. Bouwer
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #73778 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #73305] Wo, 19 Februarie 2003 16:41 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Anoniem
Oorspronklik gepos deur: @rogers.com

Hobo wrote:

> You daresay in Cornwall? How sophisticated.

Yes, have you even experienced English
as she is spoken in Cornwall? Where they
ask you "how is the weather in England
today?"

Tant Hessie van die Suidkus ( dis nou van Engeland.)
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #73786 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #73305] Wo, 19 Februarie 2003 20:09 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
sorites  is tans af-lyn  sorites
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Volle Lid
"Hobo" skryf in boodskap news:noemail-1D0082.19103218022003@cnews.newsguy.com...
> In article , "@rogers.com"
> wrote:
>
>
>> Excuse me madam, but your whitey petticoat
>> is showing.
>
> Everyone complains about "yanks" ruining this group, but what about
> Canadians like indabutt and this one?
>
>
>> What difference is there between
>> this kind of thing and the ignorance of the
>> Afrikaans and African languages that the non-
>> English speaking peoples of SA had to suffer
>> under decades and decades of English civil
>> servants that could barely talk Afrikaans
>> or not at all, and made no effort to learn
>> any African languages.
>
> I don't think the Afrikaners lived under "decades and decades" of
> English language tyranny. The brits defeated the Boer Republics in 1901
> and SA became self-governing in 1911. If anyone was subjected to
> "decades and decades" of civil servants speaking a foreign tongue it was
> the English under the rule of the National Party.
>
> As to the brits refusing to learn African languages, they seemed to have
> learned kitchen kaffir.

Haikona mina hazi lo "kitchen kaffir", bwana. Kabanga ena lo
"Fanagalo???"

>> So your attitude is: if you cannot talk
>> English "correctly", then do not use it at all?
>
> She specifically stated that during meetings the most commonly known
> language should be used, even if it is not English. Grow up.
>
>
>> Or probably more like "if you cannot talk
>> or write it properly, leave it to us hallowed
>> beings that can, to show you how."
>
> You are not the best spokesman for humility.
>
>
>> . How fluently do you speak anything
>> but English?
>
> Her job is trying to keep the blacks from fucking themselves to death,
> so I assume she can communicate with them.
>
>
>> Is your Afrikaans impeccable?
>
> Her last name is de Swardt. This is what's called a "clue".
>
>
>> in Scotland, or in Wales. And I daresay in Cornwall.
>
> You daresay in Cornwall? How sophisticated.
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #73787 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #73776] Wo, 19 Februarie 2003 20:14 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
sorites  is tans af-lyn  sorites
Boodskappe: 30
Geregistreer: September 2002
Karma: 0
Volle Lid
Oh man, when I read junk like "CIA lackeys", it can only have been
written by another one of those ultra left wingers, that think they know
all, but in fact ramble on about a subject they know nothing about. And
with all those dutch NG's in the address, it must be a Hollander,
probably PvdA (Labour party) Groen Links (Green Lefties) or worse, the
SP (Socialist Party - a misnomer for the dying communist mob there!! All
a bunch of
"do-gooders" whose own country is slowly being taken over by (mostly)
illegal immigrants!

skryf in boodskap news:3E53B2C8.6090307@rogers.com...
>
> Hobo wrote:
>
>
> If anyone was subjected to
>> "decades and decades" of civil servants speaking a foreign tongue it was
>> the English under the rule of the National Party.
>
> I had no sympathy for the English when they
> got booted out of the civil service by the
> Afrikaner lackeys of the CIA. Just imagine
> what it must have felt like for Africans to
> suddenly have to confront the broad Afrikaner
> accents talking English, when they previously
> had to suffer under the mumblings of the English
> civil servants. ( Have you ever really listened
> to South African English talking South African
> English? We recently acquired a South African
> daughter in law, and our children complained
> that they could not follow her too easily. So
> we told them that we could not easily follow
> her either. She soon learned to broaden her
> accent to suit Canadian ears.)
> So this is just the third wave, mister.
> First it was the patter of the British. Then the
> heavy tongues of the CIA lackeys. Now it is the
> turn of the majority of the population to inject
> themselves into the mixture. ( Do you know that
> African English was formed by Victorian English,
> since that is what was spoken when most of the
> native speakers first came in contact with English
> on a large scale. Just listen to African speakers
> talking to each other, and you will hear the
> cadences and the vocabulary of Victorian English.
> I think the same holds true for Indian English.)
>
> G. Bouwer
>
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #73791 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #73787] Do, 20 Februarie 2003 04:36 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Anoniem
Oorspronklik gepos deur: @rogers.com

sorites wrote:

And
> with all those dutch NG's in the address, it must be a Hollander,
> probably PvdA (Labour party) Groen Links (Green Lefties) or worse, the
> SP (Socialist Party - a misnomer for the dying communist mob there!! All
> a bunch of
> "do-gooders" whose own country is slowly being taken over by (mostly)
> illegal immigrants!

So how does it feel to make a perfect
fool of yourself.

Tant Hessie of the Algonquins
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #73799 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #73778] Do, 20 Februarie 2003 07:04 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Thys de Wet  is tans af-lyn  Thys de Wet
Boodskappe: 211
Geregistreer: Desember 2002
Karma: 0
Senior Lid
Hessie, wat het dan van jou ruiter in die watookal afrikaanse hoppelperd
geword?

Thys wat wil weet oppie Bos
skryf in boodskap news:3E53B3C3.1090303@rogers.com...
>
> Hobo wrote:
>
>
>> You daresay in Cornwall? How sophisticated.
>
> Yes, have you even experienced English
> as she is spoken in Cornwall? Where they
> ask you "how is the weather in England
> today?"
>
> Tant Hessie van die Suidkus ( dis nou van Engeland.)
>
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #73812 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #73799] Do, 20 Februarie 2003 13:43 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Anoniem
Oorspronklik gepos deur: @rogers.com

Thys de Wet wrote:

> Hessie, wat het dan van jou ruiter in die watookal afrikaanse hoppelperd
> geword?
>
> Thys wat wil weet oppie Bos

So jy mis vir hom as jy hom vir 'n ruk
nie sien nie? Die Ruiter in die Dag
is vir 'n rukkie weg van sy pos
op die grens van die Derde Republiek,
maar hy sal gou weer terugkom.

Tant Hessie van Pappegaaisberg
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #73816 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #73791] Vr, 21 Februarie 2003 03:49 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
sorites  is tans af-lyn  sorites
Boodskappe: 30
Geregistreer: September 2002
Karma: 0
Volle Lid
skryf in boodskap news:3E545B73.5010708@rogers.com...
>
> sorites wrote:
>
> And
>> with all those dutch NG's in the address, it must be a Hollander,
>> probably PvdA (Labour party) Groen Links (Green Lefties) or worse, the
>> SP (Socialist Party - a misnomer for the dying communist mob there!! All
>> a bunch of
>> "do-gooders" whose own country is slowly being taken over by (mostly)
>> illegal immigrants!
>
>
> So how does it feel to make a perfect
> fool of yourself.
>
> Tant Hessie of the Algonquins

Well, Tannie, you tell me!! Jy moes net nog 'n NG gebruik het -
soc.kindergarten
--
(I only hope that in your stumbling around, you do not wake the dragon)
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #73832 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #73816] Vr, 21 Februarie 2003 12:29 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Anoniem
Oorspronklik gepos deur: @rogers.com

sorites wrote:

> Well, Tannie, you tell me!! Jy moes net nog 'n NG gebruik het -
> soc.kindergarten
> --
> (I only hope that in your stumbling around, you do not wake the dragon)

So, ek sien jy weet darem hoe om die
draak te steek.

Tant Hessie van Riviersonderend
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #76533 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #73305] Di, 22 April 2003 17:58 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
mejustme  is tans af-lyn  mejustme
Boodskappe: 1
Geregistreer: April 2003
Karma: 0
Junior Lid
Dutch is only similar to Afrikaans if you look at the vocabulary.
(roughly spoken)

The reason why they are so similar, is that Dutch speaking people went
there, and expected people there to talk their language. (or at least
listen)
Actually, they did not simplify the grammar...
They had to learn Dutch too fast ..., and only learned the vocabulary, using
their own grammar.

Afrikaans is a mixture of local grammar with Dutch vocabulary.

And off course, it is still much more complicated.
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #79829 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #76533] Sa, 28 Junie 2003 08:36 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Mickey[1]  is tans af-lyn  Mickey[1]
Boodskappe: 1
Geregistreer: Junie 2003
Karma: 0
Junior Lid
it looks like a child speeking dutch.
"mejustme" skryf in boodskap news:Kofpa.57218$t_2.5183@afrodite.telenet-ops.be...
> Dutch is only similar to Afrikaans if you look at the vocabulary.
> (roughly spoken)
>
> The reason why they are so similar, is that Dutch speaking people went
> there, and expected people there to talk their language. (or at least
> listen)
> Actually, they did not simplify the grammar...
> They had to learn Dutch too fast ..., and only learned the vocabulary, using
> their own grammar.
>
> Afrikaans is a mixture of local grammar with Dutch vocabulary.
>
> And off course, it is still much more complicated.
>
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #79835 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #79829] Sa, 28 Junie 2003 10:12 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Jan  is tans af-lyn  Jan
Boodskappe: 167
Geregistreer: Augustus 2001
Karma: 0
Senior Lid
Ik vind afrikaans wel grappig klinken

"Mickey" skryf in boodskap news:CscLa.208$w3.116874@zonnet-reader-1...
> it looks like a child speeking dutch.
> "mejustme" schreef in bericht
> news:Kofpa.57218$t_2.5183@afrodite.telenet-ops.be...
>> Dutch is only similar to Afrikaans if you look at the vocabulary.
>> (roughly spoken)
>>
>> The reason why they are so similar, is that Dutch speaking people went
>> there, and expected people there to talk their language. (or at least
>> listen)
>> Actually, they did not simplify the grammar...
>> They had to learn Dutch too fast ..., and only learned the vocabulary, using
>> their own grammar.
>>
>> Afrikaans is a mixture of local grammar with Dutch vocabulary.
>>
>> And off course, it is still much more complicated.
>>
>
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #79848 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #79835] Sa, 28 Junie 2003 15:49 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Vusi  is tans af-lyn  Vusi
Boodskappe: 2212
Geregistreer: Februarie 2001
Karma: 0
Senior Lid
jy sal grappig op 'n anner plek sien - dit is baie grappig

"Jan" skryf in boodskap news:3efd66e4_3@corp-news.newsgroups.com...
> Ik vind afrikaans wel grappig klinken
>
> "Mickey" schreef in bericht
> news:CscLa.208$w3.116874@zonnet-reader-1...
>> it looks like a child speeking dutch.
>> "mejustme" schreef in bericht
>> news:Kofpa.57218$t_2.5183@afrodite.telenet-ops.be...
>>> Dutch is only similar to Afrikaans if you look at the vocabulary.
>>> (roughly spoken)
>>>
>>> The reason why they are so similar, is that Dutch speaking people went
>>> there, and expected people there to talk their language. (or at least
>>> listen)
>>> Actually, they did not simplify the grammar...
>>> They had to learn Dutch too fast ..., and only learned the vocabulary, using
>>> their own grammar.
>>>
>>> Afrikaans is a mixture of local grammar with Dutch vocabulary.
>>>
>>> And off course, it is still much more complicated.
>>>
>>
>
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #80209 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #79829] Ma, 07 Julie 2003 13:18 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Jaco Geldenhuys  is tans af-lyn  Jaco Geldenhuys
Boodskappe: 3
Geregistreer: April 2002
Karma: 0
Junior Lid
"Mickey" skryf in boodskap news:CscLa.208$w3.116874@zonnet-reader-1...
> it looks like a child speeking dutch.
> "mejustme" schreef in bericht
> news:Kofpa.57218$t_2.5183@afrodite.telenet-ops.be...
>> Dutch is only similar to Afrikaans if you look at the vocabulary.
>> (roughly spoken)
>>
>> The reason why they are so similar, is that Dutch speaking people went
>> there, and expected people there to talk their language. (or at least
>> listen)
>> Actually, they did not simplify the grammar...
>> They had to learn Dutch too fast ..., and only learned the vocabulary, using
>> their own grammar.
>>
>> Afrikaans is a mixture of local grammar with Dutch vocabulary.
>>
>> And off course, it is still much more complicated.

This is not quite correct. The grammar of the local languages is quite
sophisticated.
Afrikaans on the other hand has a very simple grammar with very few
irregularities.
There is almost no trace of the grammar of local languages in Afrikaans.

Other important factors were the level of education in South Africa and the
fact that
the Dutch settlers were isoloated from the influences of the other European
languages.

--
Jaco
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #80319 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #80209] Di, 08 Julie 2003 23:13 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
João Luiz  is tans af-lyn  João Luiz
Boodskappe: 1
Geregistreer: Julie 2003
Karma: 0
Junior Lid
Jaco Geldenhuys schrieb:

> This is not quite correct. The grammar of the local languages is quite
> sophisticated.
> Afrikaans on the other hand has a very simple grammar with very few
> irregularities.

Difficult grammar + lots of irregularities = sophistication ???

JL
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #80325 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #80319] Wo, 09 Julie 2003 00:57 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Jaco Geldenhuys  is tans af-lyn  Jaco Geldenhuys
Boodskappe: 3
Geregistreer: April 2002
Karma: 0
Junior Lid
"João Luiz" skryf in boodskap news:3F0B5037.173E8416@org.net.com...
> Jaco Geldenhuys schrieb:
>> This is not quite correct. The grammar of the local languages is quite sophisticated.
>> Afrikaans on the other hand has a very simple grammar with very few[ irregularities.
>
> Difficult grammar + lots of irregularities = sophistication ???

I was going to apologize for my hasty choice of words, but then I decided
to look up "sophisticated" and I would say yes, sophisticated in the sense of
highly developed or complex.

My knowledge of pre-17th century South African languages is limited, but to
give you just the faintist taste: In Xhosa (and related languages) there are word
classes that correspond to what are called "gender" in Indo-European languages.
While German has four, "der", "die", "das" and "die" (plural), Xhosa has
around 13.

--
Jaco
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #138377 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #73406] Di, 09 November 2021 11:40 Na vorige boodskapna volgende boodskap
Charlotte T  is tans af-lyn  Charlotte T
Boodskappe: 1
Geregistreer: November 2021
Karma: 0
Junior Lid
The absence of Arikaans as a language is not the only glaring example of the Dutch "Disowning" South Africa and Afrikaans. I am a first language Afrikaans speaker. I grew up in South Africa and I still live here.

Firstly, Afrikaans is alive and kicking. Our music, literature and other entertainment examples like movies and television programming is proof of this. Also, contrary to common belief, Afrikaans is not exclusively spoken by the cliched white Afrikaners, but many people from all races consider it their mother tongue. And yes, you can totally understand Dutch if you are Afrikaans and visa versa, in fact the same is true for Flemish.
Afrikaans is however also influenced by other languages, partly due to the fact that other Europeans came to South Africa e.g. the French Hugenotes, as well as people from Malaysia and India who were brought as slaves and laborers, finally of course the native languages spoken in South Africa before the V.O.C. landed at the southern most tip of Africa. In isolation from the mother language, it is inevitable that the language would evolve and mutate.

Secondly, it seems like the Dutch try to deny that they were the first Europeans to settle in South Africa. I suppose because of all the political mayhem and apartheid, they want to pretend they had no part to play. It is so much more convenient to pretend that the English were the only Europeans who colonized this nation. About 13 years ago I had the privilege to visit the Netherlands and I was so exited to see the country that my ancestors were from and the history, culture and language we learnt at school about our heritage. Needless to say I was shocked and saddened to visit Die Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam and not see one mention of Jan van Riebeek, or Simon van der Stel, or any mention of the settlement they started in the Cape. I even asked a few Dutch people who Jan van Riebeek was and the answer I got was "Isn't he that racist from South Africa?"

I still love the Netherland and Dutch as a language, and am planning on spending some more time in that beautiful country, however, feeling forgotten or disowned, as if being erased from history is a very harsh "gewaarwording".

Charlie
Re: Standard Dutch vs Afrikaans ? [boodskap #143949 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #138377] Do, 23 November 2023 09:35 Na vorige boodskap
rhon4  is tans af-lyn  rhon4
Boodskappe: 2
Geregistreer: November 2023
Karma: 0
Junior Lid
Ek verstaan ​​wanneer hulle Nederlands en Vlaams praat.

[Bygewerk op: Do, 30 November 2023 08:04]

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