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| Re: Thanks Peter :-) was Re: A lyrical and beautiful language [boodskap #110198] |
So, 14 Mei 2006 05:22  |
Moira de Swardt
Boodskappe: 41
Geregistreer: Mei 2006
Karma: 0
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Volle Lid |
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"Peter H.M. Brooks" wrote in message
> Verity, my wife, has criticised my last posting. She says that it should
> read:
> Daar is nie verskooning noodig. U is nie noodig van verskooning. U
> spaark, nie die Taal nie.
"Verskoning" not "verskooning". "Nodig" not "noodig". "Spraak" not
"spaark". We won't go into the grammar and meaning.
> She thinks that 'spraak' has two 'a's in it, not one. She also thinks
> that my second sentence is too obscure.
> I meant to say that 'you speak, not the language' in other words, it is
> your opinion, the language itself (Die Taal) is not affected by what you
> choose to believe about it, it stands in, and for, itself.
> Did it seem obscure?
It was so horrible that no-one wanted to comment on the first
attempt. The second attempt makes it obvious that you are to be
discouraged from ever writing Afrikaans.
And the aforegoing was kindly meant, Peter.
> I'm not sure that you are right about the language, Afrikaans, itself. I
> hear it spoken every day. It is rich with the spoils of English, Dutch,
> French and it has its own particular idiom, particularly, as I've tried
> to suggest with my two (very vulgar, I agree) examples.
> I find it difficult to separate Cape Town, and the Cape, and die Taal.
> The language, as spoken here, is so much in tune with our particular and
> decadent (and also stern and Islamic and Malay) culture, that it seems
> almost odd that there is another sort of Afrikaans spoken by Gautengies.
> Remember that Cape Town is as far from Johannesburg as London is from
> Rome and you'll see how odd it is that one language could fit for both
> Cape Town and Gauteng.
> As languages go, however, you might do well to see 'Tsotsi', a
> magnificent film in its own right, but also one that introduces a new
> language. The language spoken in the film is genuine, it exists, but it
> has no name, it consists of English, Afrikaans, Zulu, Xhosa, Shona, and
> other African languages (though black African languages appear to have a
> single root - a linguist friend of mine could speak seven African
> languages easily because they were all very much the same). I was,
> watching the film, amazed at how little I understood of what they were
> saying - my countrymen!
Black languages do not have a single root. Zulu, Xhosa, Swati and
one of the Zimbabwean languages, not the Shona one, the other one
(and there might be one or two others) are all Nguni languages and
they have a common root, and are, indeed, comprehensible to someone
who speaks another Nguni language and easily picked up by another
Nguni speaker - more or less like Afrikaans and Flemish. Having a
slight familiarity with the Nguni languages based on some Zulu
studies and a year in Swaziland where I studied the language quite
intently, I am at least able to distinguish when the Nguni languages
are not being spoken. :-) I can understand a bit of the Nguni
ones.
--
Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.
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| Re: Thanks Peter :-) was Re: A lyrical and beautiful language [boodskap #110200 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #110198] |
So, 14 Mei 2006 08:31  |
Peter H.M. Brooks
Boodskappe: 11
Geregistreer: Mei 2006
Karma: 0
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Junior Lid |
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Moira de Swardt wrote:
> "Peter H.M. Brooks" wrote in message
>
>> Verity, my wife, has criticised my last posting. She says that it should
>> read:
>
>> Daar is nie verskooning noodig. U is nie noodig van verskooning. U
>> spaark, nie die Taal nie.
>
> "Verskoning" not "verskooning". "Nodig" not "noodig". "Spraak" not
> "spaark". We won't go into the grammar and meaning.
>
Thank you, Moira!
>
>> She thinks that 'spraak' has two 'a's in it, not one. She also thinks
>> that my second sentence is too obscure.
>
>> I meant to say that 'you speak, not the language' in other words, it is
>> your opinion, the language itself (Die Taal) is not affected by what you
>> choose to believe about it, it stands in, and for, itself.
>
>> Did it seem obscure?
>
> It was so horrible that no-one wanted to comment on the first
> attempt. The second attempt makes it obvious that you are to be
> discouraged from ever writing Afrikaans.
>
> And the aforegoing was kindly meant, Peter.
>
Oh, I know, and I appreciate it. I am perfectly aware of my limitations
and you're quite right, that is indeed one of mine. I make a point of
speaking English to Afrikaans people, not out of any language arrogance,
but out of politeness as I don't wish them to hear me murder their language.
>
>> I'm not sure that you are right about the language, Afrikaans, itself. I
>> hear it spoken every day. It is rich with the spoils of English, Dutch,
>> French and it has its own particular idiom, particularly, as I've tried
>> to suggest with my two (very vulgar, I agree) examples.
>
>> I find it difficult to separate Cape Town, and the Cape, and die Taal.
>> The language, as spoken here, is so much in tune with our particular and
>> decadent (and also stern and Islamic and Malay) culture, that it seems
>> almost odd that there is another sort of Afrikaans spoken by Gautengies.
>
>> Remember that Cape Town is as far from Johannesburg as London is from
>> Rome and you'll see how odd it is that one language could fit for both
>> Cape Town and Gauteng.
>
>> As languages go, however, you might do well to see 'Tsotsi', a
>> magnificent film in its own right, but also one that introduces a new
>> language. The language spoken in the film is genuine, it exists, but it
>> has no name, it consists of English, Afrikaans, Zulu, Xhosa, Shona, and
>> other African languages (though black African languages appear to have a
>> single root - a linguist friend of mine could speak seven African
>> languages easily because they were all very much the same). I was,
>> watching the film, amazed at how little I understood of what they were
>> saying - my countrymen!
>
> Black languages do not have a single root. Zulu, Xhosa, Swati and
> one of the Zimbabwean languages, not the Shona one, the other one
> (and there might be one or two others) are all Nguni languages and
> they have a common root, and are, indeed, comprehensible to someone
> who speaks another Nguni language and easily picked up by another
> Nguni speaker - more or less like Afrikaans and Flemish. Having a
> slight familiarity with the Nguni languages based on some Zulu
> studies and a year in Swaziland where I studied the language quite
> intently, I am at least able to distinguish when the Nguni languages
> are not being spoken. :-) I can understand a bit of the Nguni
> ones.
>
I think that language origins are a fascinating subject.
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| Re: Thanks Peter :-) was Re: A lyrical and beautiful language [boodskap #110201 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #110200] |
So, 14 Mei 2006 11:20 |
Moira de Swardt
Boodskappe: 41
Geregistreer: Mei 2006
Karma: 0
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Volle Lid |
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"Peter H.M. Brooks" wrote in message
> Oh, I know, and I appreciate it. I am perfectly aware of my limitations
> and you're quite right, that is indeed one of mine. I make a point of
> speaking English to Afrikaans people, not out of any language arrogance,
> but out of politeness as I don't wish them to hear me murder their language.
I speak Afrikaans to Afrikaans people. Polite ones switch to
English. :-) Wasn't always the case, though. There was a time,
shortly after a year at RAU where I learned very little else but how
to speak Afrikaans well, (I passed English I, Afrikaans and
Nederlands I and one other subject) when I was genuinely bilingual.
I was working for a large firm of Afrikaans attorneys at the time,
and most of my work was done in Afrikaans. The little trace of
"foreign" was attributed to "Transvaal" when I was in Cape Town and
to "the Cape" when I was in Johannesburg. Back then I couldn't have
told you whether I had just heard a news report in English or
Afrikaans or read something in an English or Afrikaans newspaper.
Lack of use really destroys fluency in a language.
--
Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.
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| Re: Thanks Peter :-) was Re: A lyrical and beautiful language [boodskap #110209 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #110201] |
So, 14 Mei 2006 15:55 |
Peter H.M. Brooks
Boodskappe: 11
Geregistreer: Mei 2006
Karma: 0
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Junior Lid |
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Moira de Swardt wrote:
> "Peter H.M. Brooks" wrote in message
>
>> Oh, I know, and I appreciate it. I am perfectly aware of my limitations
>> and you're quite right, that is indeed one of mine. I make a point of
>> speaking English to Afrikaans people, not out of any language arrogance,
>> but out of politeness as I don't wish them to hear me murder their language.
>
> I speak Afrikaans to Afrikaans people. Polite ones switch to
> English. :-) Wasn't always the case, though. There was a time,
> shortly after a year at RAU where I learned very little else but how
> to speak Afrikaans well, (I passed English I, Afrikaans and
> Nederlands I and one other subject) when I was genuinely bilingual.
> I was working for a large firm of Afrikaans attorneys at the time,
> and most of my work was done in Afrikaans. The little trace of
> "foreign" was attributed to "Transvaal" when I was in Cape Town and
> to "the Cape" when I was in Johannesburg. Back then I couldn't have
> told you whether I had just heard a news report in English or
> Afrikaans or read something in an English or Afrikaans newspaper.
> Lack of use really destroys fluency in a language.
>
I passed my matric Afrikaans, which still amazes me, through the help of
my brother who enabled me to read 'Kennis van die aand' in the library
under supervision - it was a banned book then and that made it tempting
enough for me to wish to read it. It wasn't a very good book really.
After that, though, I hardly heard a word of the language for twenty
years - which is certainly enough time to get rusty at least!
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| Re: Thanks Peter :-) was Re: A lyrical and beautiful language [boodskap #110222 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #110200] |
Ma, 15 Mei 2006 17:51 |
Skokkie
Boodskappe: 17
Geregistreer: Mei 2006
Karma: 0
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Junior Lid |
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"Peter H.M. Brooks" skryf in boodskap news:e46ptd$noo$6@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> Moira de Swardt wrote:
>> "Peter H.M. Brooks" wrote in message
>>> Verity, my wife, has criticised my last posting. She says that it should
>>> read:
>>> Daar is nie verskooning noodig. U is nie noodig van verskooning. U
>>> spaark, nie die Taal nie.
>> "Verskoning" not "verskooning". "Nodig" not "noodig". "Spraak" not
>> "spaark". We won't go into the grammar and meaning.
>>
> Thank you, Moira!
>>> She thinks that 'spraak' has two 'a's in it, not one. She also thinks
>>> that my second sentence is too obscure.
>>> I meant to say that 'you speak, not the language' in other words, it is
>>> your opinion, the language itself (Die Taal) is not affected by what you
>>> choose to believe about it, it stands in, and for, itself.
>>> Did it seem obscure?
>> It was so horrible that no-one wanted to comment on the first
>> attempt. The second attempt makes it obvious that you are to be
>> discouraged from ever writing Afrikaans.
>> And the aforegoing was kindly meant, Peter.
>>
> Oh, I know, and I appreciate it. I am perfectly aware of my limitations
> and you're quite right, that is indeed one of mine. I make a point of
> speaking English to Afrikaans people, not out of any language arrogance,
> but out of politeness as I don't wish them to hear me murder their
> language.
>>> I'm not sure that you are right about the language, Afrikaans, itself. I
>>> hear it spoken every day. It is rich with the spoils of English, Dutch,
>>> French and it has its own particular idiom, particularly, as I've tried
>>> to suggest with my two (very vulgar, I agree) examples.
>>> I find it difficult to separate Cape Town, and the Cape, and die Taal.
>>> The language, as spoken here, is so much in tune with our particular and
>>> decadent (and also stern and Islamic and Malay) culture, that it seems
>>> almost odd that there is another sort of Afrikaans spoken by Gautengies.
>>> Remember that Cape Town is as far from Johannesburg as London is from
>>> Rome and you'll see how odd it is that one language could fit for both
>>> Cape Town and Gauteng.
>>> As languages go, however, you might do well to see 'Tsotsi', a
>>> magnificent film in its own right, but also one that introduces a new
>>> language. The language spoken in the film is genuine, it exists, but it
>>> has no name, it consists of English, Afrikaans, Zulu, Xhosa, Shona, and
>>> other African languages (though black African languages appear to have a
>>> single root - a linguist friend of mine could speak seven African
>>> languages easily because they were all very much the same). I was,
>>> watching the film, amazed at how little I understood of what they were
>>> saying - my countrymen!
>> Black languages do not have a single root. Zulu, Xhosa, Swati and
>> one of the Zimbabwean languages, not the Shona one, the other one
>> (and there might be one or two others) are all Nguni languages and
>> they have a common root, and are, indeed, comprehensible to someone
>> who speaks another Nguni language and easily picked up by another
>> Nguni speaker - more or less like Afrikaans and Flemish. Having a
>> slight familiarity with the Nguni languages based on some Zulu
>> studies and a year in Swaziland where I studied the language quite
>> intently, I am at least able to distinguish when the Nguni languages
>> are not being spoken. :-) I can understand a bit of the Nguni
>> ones.
> I think that language origins are a fascinating subject.
Absolutely! - and I wish that more people would pay attention to the
different language and cultural roots in Africa. I find that Europeans (From
a geographical perspective) tend to classify all Africans of a dark
pigmentation as "Black" This attitude totally ignores the differences
between very distinct cultural groups. I can remember a discussion where a
pom asked a Nigerian why they always put one member of a set of twins to
death at birth. He had trouble accepting the notion that only a small group
of people in the Congo practiced this. He of course ridiculed the statement
that Italians tended to be a cold dispassionate people and Germans always
spoke with their hands (or that the English were creative cooks) If one
presented him with the Tswana perspective that a person who was telling lies
was "talking Xhosa" he would regard it as an admission that all African
people tell lies. He would not understand that the highly protocol enriched
style of the Xhosa is regarded as insincere by the Tswana grammatika.
It is virtually impossible to get across to these people that the different
ethnic groups in Africa even have different facial characteristics and skin
tones - The question is often asked "why is there a photo of those Swahili
people on a Zulu language publication. It is as improbable as a blonde
Scandinavian on a Greek tourist brochure. Well maybe not as most of these
people think that the Normans were French invaders.
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| Re: Thanks Peter :-) was Re: A lyrical and beautiful language [boodskap #110223 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #110209] |
Ma, 15 Mei 2006 17:58 |
Skokkie
Boodskappe: 17
Geregistreer: Mei 2006
Karma: 0
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Junior Lid |
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"Peter H.M. Brooks" skryf in boodskap news:e47jua$la3$4@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> Moira de Swardt wrote:
>> "Peter H.M. Brooks" wrote in message
>>> Oh, I know, and I appreciate it. I am perfectly aware of my limitations
>>> and you're quite right, that is indeed one of mine. I make a point of
>>> speaking English to Afrikaans people, not out of any language arrogance,
>>> but out of politeness as I don't wish them to hear me murder their language.
>> I speak Afrikaans to Afrikaans people. Polite ones switch to
>> English. :-) Wasn't always the case, though. There was a time,
>> shortly after a year at RAU where I learned very little else but how
>> to speak Afrikaans well, (I passed English I, Afrikaans and
>> Nederlands I and one other subject) when I was genuinely bilingual.
>> I was working for a large firm of Afrikaans attorneys at the time,
>> and most of my work was done in Afrikaans. The little trace of
>> "foreign" was attributed to "Transvaal" when I was in Cape Town and
>> to "the Cape" when I was in Johannesburg. Back then I couldn't have
>> told you whether I had just heard a news report in English or
>> Afrikaans or read something in an English or Afrikaans newspaper.
>> Lack of use really destroys fluency in a language.
> I passed my matric Afrikaans, which still amazes me, through the help of
> my brother who enabled me to read 'Kennis van die aand' in the library
> under supervision - it was a banned book then and that made it tempting
> enough for me to wish to read it. It wasn't a very good book really.
>
> After that, though, I hardly heard a word of the language for twenty
> years - which is certainly enough time to get rusty at least!
I went to a school in Rhodesia that had the dubious distinction of
generating Hendrik Verwoerd as a head boy. They were hell bent on producing
a few more clones to feed the tobacco farmers war machine and there was an
over the top attempt at moulding young men in the image of the great
architect of apartheid. If Zimbabwe had had a Truth and Reconciliation
commission I would have submitted the names of half of the teachers.
Needless to say I studied French and as I live in KZN I am still not good at
Afrikaans, although I have come to appreciate the warmth and sincerity of
Afrikaans people in my latter years.
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| Re: Thanks Peter :-) was Re: A lyrical and beautiful language [boodskap #110254 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #110198] |
Di, 16 Mei 2006 17:43 |
Robert Kay
Boodskappe: 3
Geregistreer: Mei 2006
Karma: 0
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Junior Lid |
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"Moira de Swardt" skryf in boodskap news:Po-dnfr-0YUOI_vZRVn-ug@is.co.za...
>
> "Peter H.M. Brooks" wrote in message
>
>
> Black languages do not have a single root. Zulu, Xhosa, Swati and
> one of the Zimbabwean languages, not the Shona one,
Ndbele - spoken in Matabeleland (Western Zimbabwe). Offshoot of the Zulu.
> the other one
> (and there might be one or two others) are all Nguni languages and
> they have a common root, and are, indeed, comprehensible to someone
> who speaks another Nguni language and easily picked up by another
> Nguni speaker - more or less like Afrikaans and Flemish. Having a
> slight familiarity with the Nguni languages based on some Zulu
> studies and a year in Swaziland where I studied the language quite
> intently, I am at least able to distinguish when the Nguni languages
> are not being spoken. :-) I can understand a bit of the Nguni
> ones.
>
> --
> Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
> Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.
>
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