Tuis » Algemeen » Koeitjies & kalfies » Re: Afrikaner Homeland in Zimbabwe
| Re: Afrikaner Homeland in Zimbabwe [boodskap #41596] |
Sa, 05 Mei 2001 09:40  |
Annette
Boodskappe: 11114
Geregistreer: Augustus 2003
Karma: 1
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Senior Lid |
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:))) As almal maar so 'n goeie rede het om met iemand saam te stem - dan was
ons almal al lankal in Utopia:)))
Annette
Davie Davis wrote in message ...
> On Fri, 04 May 2001 09:34:51 GMT, gjb...@optushome.com.au (Geoff Bird)
> wrote:
>
>> bla bla bla...
>
> So why do I agree with you Geoff...?
> Only because somebody must be on your side as well.
> ( Will read your letter later this evening )
>
> DD
>
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| Re: Afrikaner Homeland in Zimbabwe [boodskap #41618 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #41596] |
Sa, 05 Mei 2001 17:03  |
Anoth
Boodskappe: 273
Geregistreer: Maart 2001
Karma: 0
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Liewe Geoff,
Ek dink nie meer die skeiding van rasse is 'n ding wat gedwing kan word nie.
Ek gaan nie die logika agter Apartheid verdedig of betwis nie, want dit (het
ek geleer) dra nie by tot debat oor die hede nie.
Die enigste manier waarop ons 'n suksesvolle land kan bou is deur gelyke
speelgronde te skep waarop die wat nie weet nie, kan leer by die wat wel
weet. Die mense wat wil vooruitgaan en innoveer, moet die geleentheid gebied
word om so te doen maak nie saak wat die velkleur nie.
Apartheid het een ding gedoen wat geen ander land in Afrika kon doen nie.
Dit het die land met infrastruktuur toegerus wat selfs die swart mense in
Apartheid bevoordeel het bo die ander swart mense in die res van Afrika. Ek
gaan nie oor daardie punt debateer nie, want dit is die waarheid en aan die
waarheid kan mens nie verander nie, maak nie saak hoe graag die anti
apartheid mense dit wil ontken nie.
Nou is ons almal gelyk (bietjie skeef na die ander kant toe, maar dit sal
verander sodra ons regering logika as God se gawe ontvang) Nou kan ek sonder
om skuldig te voel oor enige iets 'n swart man op straat groet as gelyke. Ek
het nou wel my klein kwellinge oor bedelaars en sulke goeters, maar dit gaan
oor my norms en waardes asook my trots. Ek is nie iemand wat glo bedelary
help enige iemand nie. Ek het ook 'n probleem met ons regering se balasting
belyd en sy hantering van misdaad. Andersins kan ek nie kla nie en is my
swart bure vurige boere musiek ondersteuners en kyk hulle ook nou en dan
rygby.
Ons moet mekaar leer respekteer. Ek is bietjie snaaks in die sin dat ek net
mense (van enige ras, wit ook) respekteer as hulle vooruit wil gaan en werk
vir wat hulle in die lewe wil he. Ek sal nie twee keer dink oor om in die
gesig van 'n misdadiger te spoeg nie. Sy mense regte kan maar na sy moer
vlieg as hy myne skend. Ek sal egter nie die reg in eie hande neem nie en
sal misdadigers aan die polisie oor laat. As een egter my familie skade
berokken en ek vang hom, kan hy maar so bietjie van 'n harde tydjie verwag
tot die polisie opdaag.
Groete
Logika
Geoff Bird skryf in boodskap news:3af1e687.373499@news...
> On Fri, 4 May 2001, Steve Hayes, haye...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> Apartheid was based on two fundamental premises:
>>
>> (1) People should live with and interact only or mainly with those who are
>> like then and it is the duty of the government to force them to do this.
>>
>> 2) The most important and significant characteristic by which people are
>> regarded as "like" each other or different from each other is the colour of
>> their skin - not common interests, etc.
>
> Steve, there are all sorts of good reasons for having Apartheid,
> which you would realise if you lived in Australia or America.
> For a start, Apartheid helps stop your kids from mixing with
> kids who you don't want them to mix with because they are
> a bad influence. For example, you don't want your kids to
> mix with children who are involved in drugs, homosexuality
> or stealing. You don't want your kids to be bullied by black
> kids or come under "peer pressure" to behave like Africans.
> You don't want your kids to be ridiculed if they do something
> good.
>
> In Australia, property developers are introducing a kind of
> Apartheid. They are building suburbs where the land is
> communally owned by a "body corporate", and divided into
> allotments like a conventional suburb. The suburb is surrounded
> by a security fence, and the "body corporate" employs security
> guards to keep out anyone other than residents and their
> guests. This prevents burglaries and encourages children to
> socialise with the children of other residents.
>
> Preventing crime is one of the big advantages of Apartheid.
> It also prevents racist attacks like the one you mentioned,
> where your relative put lighted cigarettes down the shirts
> of blacks, or white women getting raped by blacks.
> In countries like Australia, though, the main advantage is
> in bringing up children.
>
> If there is any such thing as a "basic human right", surely it
> is the right to bring your children up the way you want.
> Steve, you have benefitted greatly from Apartheid in bringing
> up your family, and now you are badmouthing Apartheid, and
> in effect "biting the hand that fed you". If the black Africans
> don't like Apartheid, it is up to them to increase their standards
> to the point where whites will not object to having them around.
>
> Geoff Bird http://www.students.org.au/political/correctness
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| Re: Afrikaner Homeland in Zimbabwe [boodskap #41632 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #41618] |
Sa, 05 Mei 2001 19:24 |
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Oorspronklik gepos deur: @home.com
Logiese Gewete wrote:
> maar dit sal
> verander sodra ons regering logika as God se gawe ontvang Nou kan ek sonder
> om skuldig te voel oor enige iets 'n swart man op straat groet as gelyke.
Vireers, veels geluk dat jy nou nie meer 'n hanskakie
is wat betref jou bynaam nie.
Jy sê dat die huidige regerende party nog nie logika as
God se gawe ontvang het nie. Het die vorige regerende
party daardie logika gehad? Is die feit dat jy nou "'n swart
man op straat groet as gelyke" nie 'n voorbeeld van die
helder logika wat daar nou in die nuwe SA is nie?
Gloudina
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| Re: Afrikaner Homeland in Zimbabwe [boodskap #41646 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #41618] |
So, 06 Mei 2001 06:13 |
Steve Hayes
Boodskappe: 17
Geregistreer: April 2004
Karma: 0
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Junior Lid |
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On Sat, 5 May 2001 19:03:21 +0200, "Logiese Gewete" wrote:
> Liewe Geoff,
I suspect that Geoff may not be able to understand this, so I'll take the
liberty of trying to translate it. Please forgive any errors I might make. I
don't necessarily agree with it all, but I think Geoff needs to see it. And I
think it represents the thinking of many Afrikaners in South Africa today.
--
Dear Geoff
> Ek dink nie meer die skeiding van rasse is 'n ding wat gedwing kan word nie.
> Ek gaan nie die logika agter Apartheid verdedig of betwis nie, want dit (het
> ek geleer) dra nie by tot debat oor die hede nie.
I no longer think that the separation of races is something that can be
forced. I will no longer defend or contest the logic behind apartheid, because
(as I have learned) that does not contribute to the present debate.
> Die enigste manier waarop ons 'n suksesvolle land kan bou is deur gelyke
> speelgronde te skep waarop die wat nie weet nie, kan leer by die wat wel
> weet. Die mense wat wil vooruitgaan en innoveer, moet die geleentheid gebied
> word om so te doen maak nie saak wat die velkleur nie.
The only way in which we can have a succesful country is to create level
playing fields on which those who do not know can learn from those who do.
Those who want to make progress and innovate must have the opportunity to do
so regardless of skin colour.
> Apartheid het een ding gedoen wat geen ander land in Afrika kon doen nie.
> Dit het die land met infrastruktuur toegerus wat selfs die swart mense in
> Apartheid bevoordeel het bo die ander swart mense in die res van Afrika. Ek
> gaan nie oor daardie punt debateer nie, want dit is die waarheid en aan die
> waarheid kan mens nie verander nie, maak nie saak hoe graag die anti
> apartheid mense dit wil ontken nie.
Apartheid did one thing that no other country could do. It provided an
infrastructure that benefited even the black people who were under apartheid
more than black people in the rest of Africa. I am not going to debate that
point, because it is the truth, and one cannot change the truth, no matter how
much the anti-apartheid people want to deny it.
> Nou is ons almal gelyk (bietjie skeef na die ander kant toe, maar dit sal
> verander sodra ons regering logika as God se gawe ontvang) Nou kan ek sonder
> om skuldig te voel oor enige iets 'n swart man op straat groet as gelyke. Ek
> het nou wel my klein kwellinge oor bedelaars en sulke goeters, maar dit gaan
> oor my norms en waardes asook my trots. Ek is nie iemand wat glo bedelary
> help enige iemand nie. Ek het ook 'n probleem met ons regering se balasting
> belyd en sy hantering van misdaad. Andersins kan ek nie kla nie en is my
> swart bure vurige boere musiek ondersteuners en kyk hulle ook nou en dan
> rygby.
Now we are all equal (a bit skewed the other way, but that will change as long
as our government accepts logic as the gift of God). Now I can greet a black
man as an equal in the street without feeling guilty about anything. I do have
small reservations about beggars and such, but that is because of my norms and
values and also my pride. I am not a person who believes that begging helps
anyone. I also have a problem with our government's tax policy and its
handling of crime. Otherwise I can't complain, and my black neighbours are
enthusiastic supporters of boeremusiek (traditional Afrikaans music) and they
occasionally watch rugby.
> Ons moet mekaar leer respekteer. Ek is bietjie snaaks in die sin dat ek net
> mense (van enige ras, wit ook) respekteer as hulle vooruit wil gaan en werk
> vir wat hulle in die lewe wil he. Ek sal nie twee keer dink oor om in die
> gesig van 'n misdadiger te spoeg nie. Sy mense regte kan maar na sy moer
> vlieg as hy myne skend. Ek sal egter nie die reg in eie hande neem nie en
> sal misdadigers aan die polisie oor laat. As een egter my familie skade
> berokken en ek vang hom, kan hy maar so bietjie van 'n harde tydjie verwag
> tot die polisie opdaag.
We must learn to respect each other. I'm a bit odd in the sense that I only
respect people (of any race, including white) if they want to progress and
work for what they want in life. I wouldn't think twice about spitting in the
face of a criminal. He can stick his human rights up his arse if he doesn't
respect mine. If he harms any member of my family he can expect a hard time
while waiting for the police to turn up.
> Groete
Greetings.
> Logika
>
>
> Geoff Bird wrote in message
> news:3af1e687.373499@news...
>> On Fri, 4 May 2001, Steve Hayes, haye...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> Apartheid was based on two fundamental premises:
>>>
>>> (1) People should live with and interact only or mainly with those who
> are
>>> like then and it is the duty of the government to force them to do this.
>>>
>>> 2) The most important and significant characteristic by which people are
>>> regarded as "like" each other or different from each other is the colour
> of
>>> their skin - not common interests, etc.
>> Steve, there are all sorts of good reasons for having Apartheid,
>> which you would realise if you lived in Australia or America.
>> For a start, Apartheid helps stop your kids from mixing with
>> kids who you don't want them to mix with because they are
>> a bad influence. For example, you don't want your kids to
>> mix with children who are involved in drugs, homosexuality
>> or stealing. You don't want your kids to be bullied by black
>> kids or come under "peer pressure" to behave like Africans.
>> You don't want your kids to be ridiculed if they do something
>> good.
>> In Australia, property developers are introducing a kind of
>> Apartheid. They are building suburbs where the land is
>> communally owned by a "body corporate", and divided into
>> allotments like a conventional suburb. The suburb is surrounded
>> by a security fence, and the "body corporate" employs security
>> guards to keep out anyone other than residents and their
>> guests. This prevents burglaries and encourages children to
>> socialise with the children of other residents.
>> Preventing crime is one of the big advantages of Apartheid.
>> It also prevents racist attacks like the one you mentioned,
>> where your relative put lighted cigarettes down the shirts
>> of blacks, or white women getting raped by blacks.
>> In countries like Australia, though, the main advantage is
>> in bringing up children.
>> If there is any such thing as a "basic human right", surely it
>> is the right to bring your children up the way you want.
>> Steve, you have benefitted greatly from Apartheid in bringing
>> up your family, and now you are badmouthing Apartheid, and
>> in effect "biting the hand that fed you". If the black Africans
>> don't like Apartheid, it is up to them to increase their standards
>> to the point where whites will not object to having them around.
>> Geoff Bird http://www.students.org.au/political/correctness
>
>
Steve Hayes
http://www.suite101.com/myhome.cfm/methodius
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| Re: Afrikaner Homeland in Zimbabwe [boodskap #41718 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #41596] |
So, 06 Mei 2001 22:11 |
Anoth
Boodskappe: 273
Geregistreer: Maart 2001
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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Geagte Gloudina,
Ek het 'n groot probleem daarmee om die verlede te beoordeel uit 'n moderne
perspektief. Ek kan net praat oor die gevolge van Apartheid wat ek beleef.
Toe ek jonger was kon ek nooit stem nie omdat ek te jonk was. Ek kon eers in
die 1994 verkiesing stem en jy weet wat die resultate van daardie verkiesing
was.
Ek gaan nie oor die heersers se denke en logika praat nie, omdat hulle uit
'n ander era en dus perspektief na die wêreld gekyk het en dus dalk die
nodigheid van sekere onregte ingesien het. Die lewe in 'n land waar selfs
almal regte het is nie altyd maanskyn en rose nie. Ek kan wel oor die
gevolge van daardie beleid (apartheid) praat en as ek nou as 'n jong mens
kyk na Suid Afrika teenoor die res van Afrika, moet ek eerlik sê hier is dit
baie beter. Hoekom? Jy kan self daaroor gaan gis.
Groete
Logika
skryf in boodskap news:3AF453E6.79E913B3@home.com...
Logiese Gewete wrote:
> maar dit sal
> verander sodra ons regering logika as God se gawe ontvang Nou kan ek sonder
> om skuldig te voel oor enige iets 'n swart man op straat groet as gelyke.
Vireers, veels geluk dat jy nou nie meer 'n hanskakie
is wat betref jou bynaam nie.
Jy sê dat die huidige regerende party nog nie logika as
God se gawe ontvang het nie. Het die vorige regerende
party daardie logika gehad? Is die feit dat jy nou "'n swart
man op straat groet as gelyke" nie 'n voorbeeld van die
helder logika wat daar nou in die nuwe SA is nie?
Gloudina
skryf in boodskap news:3AF453E6.79E913B3@home.com...
Logiese Gewete wrote:
> maar dit sal
> verander sodra ons regering logika as God se gawe ontvang Nou kan ek sonder
> om skuldig te voel oor enige iets 'n swart man op straat groet as gelyke.
Vireers, veels geluk dat jy nou nie meer 'n hanskakie
is wat betref jou bynaam nie.
Jy sê dat die huidige regerende party nog nie logika as
God se gawe ontvang het nie. Het die vorige regerende
party daardie logika gehad? Is die feit dat jy nou "'n swart
man op straat groet as gelyke" nie 'n voorbeeld van die
helder logika wat daar nou in die nuwe SA is nie?
Gloudina
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| Re: Afrikaner Homeland in Zimbabwe [boodskap #41724 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #41596] |
So, 06 Mei 2001 22:28 |
Anoth
Boodskappe: 273
Geregistreer: Maart 2001
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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Apartheid was iets wat die enigste werklik welvarend land in Afrika geskep
het. Nou hoe verklaar jy dit? En hoe plaas 'n mens perspektief daarop? Sou
jy in die land gebly het as dit soos Ethiopie gelyk het? Net 'n gedagte.
Dink bietjie daaroor, en as jy eerlik kan ja antwoord, dan sal ek respek hê
vir mense wat iets kritiseer wat iets geskep het waaruit selfs die swartes
(ongelukkig net in 'n mindere mate as die wit mense, maar kultuur was 'n
struikelblok) voordeel getrek het tydens apartheid.
Groete
Logika
Steve Hayes skryf in boodskap news:3af38373.36107632@news.saix.net...
> On Fri, 04 May 2001 09:34:51 GMT, gjb...@optushome.com.au (Geoff Bird) wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 4 May 2001, Steve Hayes, haye...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>> Apartheid was based on two fundamental premises:
>
>>> (1) People should live with and interact only or mainly with those who are
>>> like then and it is the duty of the government to force them to do this.
>
>>> 2) The most important and significant characteristic by which people are
>>> regarded as "like" each other or different from each other is the colour of
>>> their skin - not common interests, etc.
>>
>> Steve, there are all sorts of good reasons for having Apartheid,
>> which you would realise if you lived in Australia or America.
>> For a start, Apartheid helps stop your kids from mixing with
>> kids who you don't want them to mix with because they are
>> a bad influence. For example, you don't want your kids to
>> mix with children who are involved in drugs, homosexuality
>> or stealing. You don't want your kids to be bullied by black
>> kids or come under "peer pressure" to behave like Africans.
>> You don't want your kids to be ridiculed if they do something
>> good.
>
> Well thank God for the Indian Ocean. I'd hate it if my kids had to mix with
> Australians. It's bad enough hearing the cricket commentators blathering on
> about Shine Warne.
>
>> In Australia, property developers are introducing a kind of
>> Apartheid. They are building suburbs where the land is
>> communally owned by a "body corporate", and divided into
>> allotments like a conventional suburb. The suburb is surrounded
>> by a security fence, and the "body corporate" employs security
>> guards to keep out anyone other than residents and their
>> guests. This prevents burglaries and encourages children to
>> socialise with the children of other residents.
>
> Yes, we have jails like that here too. You find them all over the world. It's
> all based on the experience of Marie Antoinette, who discovered to her cost
> that the line between the rich and the poor was drawn between the head and the
> shoulders.
>
>> Preventing crime is one of the big advantages of Apartheid.
>> It also prevents racist attacks like the one you mentioned,
>> where your relative put lighted cigarettes down the shirts
>> of blacks, or white women getting raped by blacks.
>
> Does it stop white women getting raped by whites or black women getting raped
> by blacks?
>
> If not, what's the use of it?
>
>> In countries like Australia, though, the main advantage is
>> in bringing up children.
>>
>> If there is any such thing as a "basic human right", surely it
>> is the right to bring your children up the way you want.
>
> Yes, I want to bring up my children with freedom of association, which was
> denied to them by apartheid.
>
>> Steve, you have benefitted greatly from Apartheid in bringing
>> up your family, and now you are badmouthing Apartheid, and
>> in effect "biting the hand that fed you". If the black Africans
>> don't like Apartheid, it is up to them to increase their standards
>> to the point where whites will not object to having them around.
>
> Oh, apartheid was a great benefit to me. It enabled me to see the naked face
> of evil, which made it easier to recognise. At least with apartheid you knew
> the enemy. In other societies it's like trying to attack a pile of feathers.
>
> Steve Hayes
> http://www.suite101.com/myhome.cfm/methodius
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| Re: Afrikaner Homeland in Zimbabwe [boodskap #41794 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #41724] |
Di, 08 Mei 2001 19:44 |
Max
Boodskappe: 1496
Geregistreer: Februarie 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Lid |
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"Logika" skryf in boodskap news:9d4jmm$ht8$1@ctb-nnrp1.saix.net...
> Apartheid was iets wat die enigste werklik welvarend land in Afrika geskep
> het. Nou hoe verklaar jy dit? En hoe plaas 'n mens perspektief daarop? Sou
> jy in die land gebly het as dit soos Ethiopie gelyk het? Net 'n gedagte.
> Dink bietjie daaroor, en as jy eerlik kan ja antwoord, dan sal ek respek hê
> vir mense wat iets kritiseer wat iets geskep het waaruit selfs die swartes
> (ongelukkig net in 'n mindere mate as die wit mense, maar kultuur was 'n
> struikelblok) voordeel getrek het tydens apartheid.
>
> Groete
> Logika
>
>
> Steve Hayes wrote in message
> news:3af38373.36107632@news.saix.net...
>> On Fri, 04 May 2001 09:34:51 GMT, gjb...@optushome.com.au (Geoff
Bird)
> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 4 May 2001, Steve Hayes, haye...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Apartheid was based on two fundamental premises:
>>
>>>> (1) People should live with and interact only or mainly with those
who
> are
>>>> like then and it is the duty of the government to force them to do
this.
>>
>>>> 2) The most important and significant characteristic by which people are
>>>> regarded as "like" each other or different from each other is the
colour
> of
>>>> their skin - not common interests, etc.
>>>
>>> Steve, there are all sorts of good reasons for having Apartheid,
>>> which you would realise if you lived in Australia or America.
>>> For a start, Apartheid helps stop your kids from mixing with
>>> kids who you don't want them to mix with because they are
>>> a bad influence. For example, you don't want your kids to
>>> mix with children who are involved in drugs, homosexuality
>>> or stealing. You don't want your kids to be bullied by black
>>> kids or come under "peer pressure" to behave like Africans.
>>> You don't want your kids to be ridiculed if they do something
>>> good.
>>
>> Well thank God for the Indian Ocean. I'd hate it if my kids had to
mix
> with
>> Australians. It's bad enough hearing the cricket commentators
blathering
> on
>> about Shine Warne.
>>
>>> In Australia, property developers are introducing a kind of
>>> Apartheid. They are building suburbs where the land is
>>> communally owned by a "body corporate", and divided into
>>> allotments like a conventional suburb. The suburb is surrounded
>>> by a security fence, and the "body corporate" employs security
>>> guards to keep out anyone other than residents and their
>>> guests. This prevents burglaries and encourages children to
>>> socialise with the children of other residents.
>>
>> Yes, we have jails like that here too. You find them all over the
world.
> It's
>> all based on the experience of Marie Antoinette, who discovered to
her
> cost
>> that the line between the rich and the poor was drawn between the
head and
> the
>> shoulders.
>>
>>> Preventing crime is one of the big advantages of Apartheid.
>>> It also prevents racist attacks like the one you mentioned,
>>> where your relative put lighted cigarettes down the shirts
>>> of blacks, or white women getting raped by blacks.
>>
>> Does it stop white women getting raped by whites or black women
getting
> raped
>> by blacks?
>>
>> If not, what's the use of it?
>>
>>> In countries like Australia, though, the main advantage is
>>> in bringing up children.
>>>
>>> If there is any such thing as a "basic human right", surely it
>>> is the right to bring your children up the way you want.
>>
>> Yes, I want to bring up my children with freedom of association, which was
>> denied to them by apartheid.
>>
>>> Steve, you have benefitted greatly from Apartheid in bringing
>>> up your family, and now you are badmouthing Apartheid, and
>>> in effect "biting the hand that fed you". If the black Africans
>>> don't like Apartheid, it is up to them to increase their standards
>>> to the point where whites will not object to having them around.
>>
>> Oh, apartheid was a great benefit to me. It enabled me to see the
naked
> face
>> of evil, which made it easier to recognise. At least with apartheid
you
> knew
>> the enemy. In other societies it's like trying to attack a pile of
> feathers.
>>
>> Steve Hayes
>> http://www.suite101.com/myhome.cfm/methodius
>
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| Re: Afrikaner Homeland in Zimbabwe [boodskap #41830 is 'n antwoord op boodskap #41724] |
Wo, 09 Mei 2001 19:13 |
Steve Hayes
Boodskappe: 17
Geregistreer: April 2004
Karma: 0
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Junior Lid |
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On Mon, 7 May 2001 00:28:37 +0200, "Logika" wrote:
> Apartheid was iets wat die enigste werklik welvarend land in Afrika geskep
> het. Nou hoe verklaar jy dit? En hoe plaas 'n mens perspektief daarop? Sou
> jy in die land gebly het as dit soos Ethiopie gelyk het? Net 'n gedagte.
> Dink bietjie daaroor, en as jy eerlik kan ja antwoord, dan sal ek respek hê
> vir mense wat iets kritiseer wat iets geskep het waaruit selfs die swartes
> (ongelukkig net in 'n mindere mate as die wit mense, maar kultuur was 'n
> struikelblok) voordeel getrek het tydens apartheid.
I disagree.
Apartheid did not create prosperity. Some would argue that there would have
been more prosperity without it, because apartheid wasted a lot of money that
could have been put to better use.
Steve Hayes
http://www.suite101.com/myhome.cfm/methodius
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