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description: Kom praat saam!
items: Comparative Afrikaans / Dutch / Low Saxon translation
items: Re: Comparative Afrikaans / Dutch / Low Saxon translation

Comparative Afrikaans / Dutch / Low Saxon translation
type: item
description: Hierdie kant van die waarheid... Here is the first stanza of Dylan Thomas's poem This Side of the Truth, followed by my translation into the Southwest Drents variant of Low Saxon (the native tongue on my mother's side of the family). Low Saxon is a collection of non-standardised dialects spoken in the Northeastern Netherlands and Northern Germany. The dialects on both sides of the border, which have traditionally formed a continuum, have been heavily influenced by the respective national standard language, and over the course of the twentieth century have witnessed a sharp decline in fluent speakers. This translation is in turn followed, for purposes of comparison, by a literal translation of the Low Saxon into Dutch, and my attempt - quite possibly flawed - at a literal translation of the Low Saxon into Afrikaans. Note that Afrikaans finds its origin in the Western Dutch (Hollandic, Zeelandic) dialects, not in the Eastern Dutch dialects which include the Low Saxon ones. Low Saxon developed independently from Dutch and (High) German, and had political clout in the days of the Hanseatic League, after which its marginalisation began. What is your impression of these comparisons? Can the Afrikaans be improved? E.g., I don't think "in de benen komen" (get up on one's feet) translates literally into Afrikaans; what would be the closest rendering? English This side of the truth, You may not see, my son, King of your blue eyes In the blinding country of youth, That all is undone, Under the unminding skies, Of innocence and guilt Before you move to make One gesture of the heart or head, Is gathered and spilt Into the winding dark Like the dust of the dead. Low Saxon (Southwest Drents) Dizze kaante van de waorheid Zuj miskien niet zien, mien zeun, Keuning van oen blauwe ogen Ien 't blinde laand van de kiender: Det alle dinger ofleupt, Al blif de hemel onbewogen, Onskuld en skuld gaot verleuren Veurdej ok mar mit ien gebaor Van heufd of harte ien de bienen koomt Wördt alles v…
creator: umfo...
date: 2007-07-11T15:27:47-00:00

Re: Comparative Afrikaans / Dutch / Low Saxon translation
type: item
description: On Jul 11, 5:27 pm, umfo...@gmail.com wrote: > Hierdie kant van die waarheid... > What is your impression of these comparisons? Can the Afrikaans be > improved? I've tried my hand at another Afrikaans version, below: > > Hierdie kant van die waarheid > Sal jy miskien nie sien nie, my seun, > Koning van jou bloue oë > In die blinde land van die kindere: > Dat al die dinge eindig, > Al bly die hemel onbewoë, > Onskuld en skuld gaan verlore > Voordat jy net een gebaar > Van kop of hart kan maak > Word alles weggehaal en, as die stof > Van die dode, gegiet in die draaiende > Duister op die laaste aand. Hier's my weergawe: ---- Hierdie kant van die waarheid mag jy dalk nie sien nie, my seun Koning van jou blou oë in die verblindende land van die jeug Dat alles ongedaan is onder die onbetrokke hemele van onskuld en en skuld Voor jy nog kan wik of maak 'n gebaar van hoof of hart Word alles weggehaal en bymekaargemaak, verstrooi in die wentelende duister soos die stof van dooies -- Nou Prajy.
date: 2007-07-11T16:52:15-00:00

Re: Comparative Afrikaans / Dutch / Low Saxon translation
type: item
description: > Hier's my weergawe: > ---- > > Hierdie kant van die waarheid > mag jy dalk nie sien nie, my seun > Koning van jou blou oë > in die verblindende land van die jeug > Dat alles ongedaan is > onder die onbetrokke hemele > van onskuld en en skuld > Voor jy nog kan wik of maak > 'n gebaar van hoof of hart > Word alles weggehaal en > bymekaargemaak, verstrooi > in die wentelende duister > soos die stof van dooies The more times I read your version, the better I like it. Thanks also for the implicit corrections. One thing: "This side of the truth, / You may not see, my son" you render as "Hierdie kant van die waarheid / mag jy dalk nie sien nie, my seun". I understand that "mag" here indicates possibility, rather than (a lack of) permission? I.e., "perhaps you cannot see this side of the truth", rather than "you had better not see this side of the truth". In Dutch, by contrast, "mogen" normally refers to permission. "Dat mag je niet zien" - "You aren't allowed to see that." Whereas "Maybe you can't see that" would be "Dat kun je misschien niet zien." In any case, this issue gets me thinking about whether "You may not see, my son" indicates that the son is likely not to perceive the awaiting oblivion, or perhaps that the writer thinks it best that the son is not (yet) told that all things will perish. Even though there is solace in all things perishing because evil will "die in unjudging love". Below are the two remaining stanzas of Thomas's poem, followed by my Afrikaans translation. Improvements are welcome, as is any type of commentary! Good and bad, two ways Of moving about your death By the grinding sea, King of your heart in the blind days, Blow away like breath, Go crying through you and me And the souls of all men Into the innocent Dark, and the guilty dark, and good Death, and bad death, and then In the last element Fly like the stars' blood Like the sun's tears, Like the moon's seed, rubbish And fire, the flying rant Of the sky, king of your six years. And the wi…
creator: umfo...
date: 2007-07-12T10:21:54-00:00

Re: Comparative Afrikaans / Dutch / Low Saxon translation
type: item
description: On Jul 12, 12:21 pm, umfo...@gmail.com wrote: >> Hier's my weergawe: >> ---- > >> Hierdie kant van die waarheid >> mag jy dalk nie sien nie, my seun >> Koning van jou blou oë >> in die verblindende land van die jeug >> Dat alles ongedaan is >> onder die onbetrokke hemele >> van onskuld en en skuld >> Voor jy nog kan wik of maak >> 'n gebaar van hoof of hart >> Word alles weggehaal en >> bymekaargemaak, verstrooi >> in die wentelende duister >> soos die stof van dooies > > The more times I read your version, the better I like it. Thanks also > for the implicit corrections. > > One thing: "This side of the truth, / You may not see, my son" you > render as "Hierdie kant van die waarheid / mag jy dalk nie sien nie, > my seun". I understand that "mag" here indicates possibility, rather > than (a lack of) permission? I.e., "perhaps you cannot see this side > of the truth", rather than "you had better not see this side of the > truth". The meaning of Afrikaans "mag" quite closely matches "may" in this case, with the two different meanings equally valid, although "dalk" would most likely also be added to distinguish better in normal conversation. > In Dutch, by contrast, "mogen" normally refers to permission. "Dat mag > je niet zien" - "You aren't allowed to see that." Whereas "Maybe you > can't see that" would be "Dat kun je misschien niet zien." In any > case, this issue gets me thinking about whether "You may not see, my > son" indicates that the son is likely not to perceive the awaiting > oblivion, or perhaps that the writer thinks it best that the son is > not (yet) told that all things will perish. Even though there is > solace in all things perishing because evil will "die in unjudging > love". > > Below are the two remaining stanzas of Thomas's poem, followed by my > Afrikaans translation. Improvements are welcome, as is any type of > commentary! > > Good and bad, two ways > Of moving about your death > By the grinding sea, > King of your heart in the blind days, >…
date: 2007-07-13T22:21:27-00:00

Re: Comparative Afrikaans / Dutch / Low Saxon translation
type: item
description: Thanks again for your version. >> Good and bad, two ways >> Of moving about your death >> By the grinding sea, >> Goed en sleg, twee wyses >> Om dood toe oor die pad te loop >> Na die malende see, > Goed en boos, twee wëe > van met die dood omgaan > By die malende see "Moving about your death", I think is more or less "Going any coiling direction you choose (walking along good paths or bad ones), but always heading ultimately towards your death." With "dood toe [...] loop", I tried to use, in a figurative way, a typical Afrikaans turn of phrase which is somewhat different in Dutch. An example: "As jy 'n migraine het, gaan jy dokter toe en hy gee vir jou 'n pyninspuiting." In Dutch: "Als je migraine hebt, ga je naar de dokter (toe) en geeft hij je een injectie tegen de pijn." "Ek gaan huis toe." "Ik ga naar huis (toe)." Cheers, Umfol...
creator: umfo...
date: 2007-07-16T18:54:43-00:00

Re: Comparative Afrikaans / Dutch / Low Saxon translation
type: item
description: On Jul 16, 8:54 pm, umfo...@gmail.com wrote: > Thanks again for your version. > >>> Good and bad, two ways >>> Of moving about your death >>> By the grinding sea, >>> Goed en sleg, twee wyses >>> Om dood toe oor die pad te loop >>> Na die malende see, >> Goed en boos, twee wëe >> van met die dood omgaan >> By die malende see > > "Moving about your death", I think is more or less "Going any coiling > direction you choose (walking along good paths or bad ones), but > always heading ultimately towards your death." > > With "dood toe [...] loop", I tried to use, in a figurative way, a > typical Afrikaans turn of phrase which is somewhat different in Dutch. > > An example: "As jy 'n migraine het, gaan jy dokter toe en hy gee vir > jou 'n pyninspuiting." > In Dutch: "Als je migraine hebt, ga je naar de dokter (toe) en geeft > hij je een injectie tegen de pijn." > > "Ek gaan huis toe." > "Ik ga naar huis (toe)." > Oh, I se what you mean. However, the line "Om dood toe oor die pad te loop" would rather mean "to cross the road on your way to death". How about this then: "...two ways/ of moving about your death/By the grinding sea" translated as "twee weë / om jou dood te betree/ by die malende see" --
date: 2007-07-16T19:56:54-00:00